Nagasaki Shinkansen maybe not to use Free Gauge Train

[katoftw]

I definitely agree that just extending the line to Hizen-yamaguchi would be the best choice. I don't know much gauge change part but I would assume that they are thinking that getting it right would mean they could interconnect a lot of disparate shinkansen routes with less investment. Good on paper...

 

Also, I'll see if I can find a good map. I know there is a good one of the Takeo area portion in city hall...

 

edit:

I found some links with slightly better maps but they are in fine Japanese digital document tradition... too pixelated to read most of the kanji. These are links to the info pages. There are links to the routes and other info to explore on there.

Anyway, here you go.

From Saga-ken:

http://www.pref.saga.lg.jp/web/at-contents/kenseijoho/shinkansen/explanation.html

From Nagaski-ken:

https://www.pref.nagasaki.jp/bunrui/machidukuri/doro-kotsu/shinkansen/gaiyo-shinkansen/

 

 

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Not 100%  what I was looking for, but the most detailed yet.  Takeo-Onsen to the left.  Nagasaki to the right.  Can seen the new Omura Station near the Nagasaki Airport in middle.  Isahaya @ top-right.

 

The new Omura Station will be located between Takematsu and Suwa.

Edited February 26, 2016 by katoftw

[kvp]

One thing I would say is that if they dual gauged the track. They would need to double track it also cos the Hizen-Yamaguchi to Shin-Tosu section of line is very busy.

This leaves the problem of the small stations along the line which would have to be rebuilt so shinkansen can bypass them and the local commuter trains. Running a commuter service and shinkansen on the same tracks seems problematic. Quadruple tracking leaves us with the same result as building a new lines except it would run through the middle of a few towns. Possible but doesn't look practical.

 

Option 1 - A relay between Hakata to Hizen-Yamaguchi or Takeo-Onsen.

Option 2 - A mini-shinkansen between Shin-Tosu and Nagasaki. This option could be hooked up to the Kyushu shinkansen which would delete the transfer issues.

Both seems possible, the question is which is better financially and politically? Imho a relay would be cheaper and would leave more money for building the full route.

 

Not 100% what I was looking for, but the most detailed yet. Takeo-Onsen to the left. Nagasaki to the right.

Thank you! Now what is missing is imho the phase 2 route to Shin-Tosu.

[katoftw]

Phase 2 just follows the Nagasaki mainline between Hizen-Yamaguchi and Shin-Tosu.  Not much deviation as the line is fairly straight between the two stations.  Somewhere closer to Shin-Tosu it would deviate north and under Mountains.  Near Yoshinogarikoen Station.  But I don't think there is an official plan yet.

Edited February 26, 2016 by katoftw

[katoftw]

"IF" I was in power.  I'd ditch the Takeo-Onsen Shinkansen station.  It is only 14 km and 15 mins away from Hizen-Yamaguchi.  Use said savings to build Shinkansen Line to Hizen-Yamaguchi and transfer station.  And run a Relay Kamome train from Hakata to Hizen-Yamaguchi.  This is currently a 47 minute trip.  RIP 885 series. :(

 

Then the Hizen-Yamaguchi to Nagasaki 80km shinkansen section would take say estimate with 3 stops, say 24 mins.

 

Complete travel time with 9 minutes allowed for transfer is 80 minutes.  Much quicker than the current 115 minutes.  Travelers from beyond Hakata or south of Shin-Tosu can transfer at Shin-Tosu.

 

But I'm not in power.  So we'll just wait an see.

Edited February 26, 2016 by katoftw

[katoftw]

Tunnels! - http://www.pref.nagasaki.jp/shared/uploads/2015/11/1453426041.pdf

[jpdorgan]

I know that ditching Takeo is just a fun hypothetical but I should point out that Takeo is generally seen as a much more important location than Kohoku (the town around the station). The stop in Takeo has a lot to do with economic factors and outside political considerations.

 

Also, I live here. ;-)

 

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[katoftw]

As an outsider.  I fail to know the difference between to two.  What economic and political factors make one better than the other?

[jpdorgan]

Honestly speaking, Kohoku is a town that is basically only a stop on the road between Saga and Sasebo / Nagasaki. It has a pop. Less than 10,000 which makes it basically nonexistent in Japan.

 

Takeo is a little bigger and has a famous (within Japan) onsen. It also has convenient road connections to a lot of other cities in the area. Comparatively, Kohaku's only major road connection is 35 which runs parallel to the rail between Saga and Sasebo. Basically that means if you get off the train in Kohoku, you're staying in Kohoku. Which will be tough since they don't have hotels.

 

As a funny side note, when I first moved here I remember the talk among my friends about how missing the last connection in Hizen-yamaguchi ( a major place for connections) meant you were spending the night wandering the empty streets of the town.

 

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[katoftw]

This leaves the problem of the small stations along the line which would have to be rebuilt so shinkansen can bypass them and the local commuter trains. Running a commuter service and shinkansen on the same tracks seems problematic. Quadruple tracking leaves us with the same result as building a new lines except it would run through the middle of a few towns. Possible but doesn't look practical.

That is a big yes and no.

 

 

 

Shin-Yatsushiro station then it was a transfer station with a platform still cape gauge.  As you can tell, you can see what they need to do to make it normal guage and run Shinkansens.

[katoftw]

Honestly speaking, Kohoku is a town that is basically only a stop on the road between Saga and Sasebo / Nagasaki. It has a pop. Less than 10,000 which makes it basically nonexistent in Japan.

 

Takeo is a little bigger and has a famous (within Japan) onsen. It also has convenient road connections to a lot of other cities in the area. Comparatively, Kohaku's only major road connection is 35 which runs parallel to the rail between Saga and Sasebo. Basically that means if you get off the train in Kohoku, you're staying in Kohoku. Which will be tough since they don't have hotels.

 

As a funny side note, when I first moved here I remember the talk among my friends about how missing the last connection in Hizen-yamaguchi ( a major place for connections) meant you were spending the night wandering the empty streets of the town.

Quite interesting insight.  Thank you for that.  Any town that has a shinkansen station normally advances quite well.  Example Shin-Yatsushiro Station.  There wasn't even a station there.  Just rural farming land, now it is a busy(ish) town centre.

 

But from your description of Takeo, I can see why the Saga officials wanna make sure Takeo gets a cut of the shinkansen pie.  Again like above.  Once operational, I could see a lot of the older buildings in the centre of town making way for newer (and taller) dwellings as the surrounding area advances.

[cteno4]

I would also guess how much real estate the railroads own or could easily get around potential expansion stations comes to bare as they seem to make most of their profit on that side.

 

jeff

[katoftw]

Bye bye FGT - too difficult to develop and too costly to maintain.  Finish full route ahead of original schedule or mini Shinkansen being considered.

 

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20180608-00000040-mai-bus_all

Edited June 8, 2018 by katoftw

[Densha]

Good. Just don't do the mini Shinkansen either. A full Shinkansen is a much better long-term investment.

 

That said, I have never understood the real purpose of this line. It's not like travel times will be reduced that much, and it's not that busy a stretch of track either. If they were to connect the Nagasaki Shinkansen to the Sanyo Shinkansen, only then there would be a big advantage, which is being able to get rid of the transfer at Hakata.

[bill937ca]

The value is probably through trains and the politics of not excluding Nagasaki from the Shinkansen network.

[Densha]

I don't think they ever said they were actually going to do through FGT trains to Osaka or something. I at least was under the assumption they wouldn't, because that means changing gauges twice each journey. Not really sure if they actually announced what exactly the plan was.

 

For through FGT trains from the Sanyo Shinkansen they wouldn't have to build a Shinkansen line from Nagasaki to Takeo-Onsen though. They could have just let the train run on cape gauge tracks all the way from Hakata to Nagasaki.

 

I also don't understand why they just don't connect the Nagasaki Shinkansen to the Kyushu Shinkansen at Shin-Tosu. In the FGT plan it would mean saving time because the Kyushu Shinkansen simply allows higher speeds, and in the case of a full Shinkansen it would mean not having to lay 25 km extra of expensive tracks. The Kyushu Shinkansen has plenty of capacity left anyway.

 

And soon everyone travelling to Nagasaki will have to transfer at Takeo-Onsen for a relay service. Way to promote travelling by rail.

[kvp]

Imho there would be an alternative to full shinkansen or mini ahinkansen routes. Building a dual gauge, dual loading gauge, normal speed line on the existing right of way. Very much how the hakone tozan railway's standard gauge trains operated together with cape gauge limited expresses. The idea is to allow full shinkansen trains to go through standard gauge, standard (low) speed tracks even with level crossings. The french TGV network has a few similar sections. A bit of a slow ride on those sections , but two transfers less and overall faster.

 

ps: My take on a gauge changing train: For each bogie, add 2 axles of standard and 2 axles of cape gauge wheelsets and make them retractable with an air suspension system. If the two wider gauge axles are between the two narrower gauge axles, then the loading gauge around the bogies would be kept. Changing gauges would requir a piece of quad rail tracks and the lowering of the new axles and the retracting of the previous ones.

[katoftw]

4 hours ago, kvp said:

Imho there would be an alternative to full shinkansen or mini ahinkansen routes. Building a dual gauge, dual loading gauge, normal speed line on the existing right of way. Very much how the hakone tozan railway's standard gauge trains operated together with cape gauge limited expresses. The idea is to allow full shinkansen trains to go through standard gauge, standard (low) speed tracks even with level crossings. The french TGV network has a few similar sections. A bit of a slow ride on those sections , but two transfers less and overall faster.

Although you say as an alternative to mini shinkasen.  What you have suggested is how mini shinkansens operate in JR East territory.

 

I personally think, and I might have suggested this in 2016.  Is that they should have begun from the start with mini shinkansen.  Shinkansan as normal to Tosu.  Then dual gauge to Hizen-Yamaguich or Takao-Onsen, then it's own line to Omura, then dual again into Nagasaki via Isahaya.  This deleted the two slowest cape guage sections between Hakata and Tosu and Hizen-Yamaguchi and Isahaya.  The Nagasaki Mail Line between Hizen-Yamaguchi and Isahaya being the slowest section of all sections.

 

And the section of track between Tosu and Hizen-Yamaguichi isn't gonna need to be a twin track once a full shinkasen track was constructed anyway, as all limited expresses would cease with only local and rapids being operational, as the shinkansen fill the needs of what the limited expresses used to do.

 

This should a somewhat cost effective solution as it requires only the ramps from the current Kyushu Shinkansen near Tosu, dual guaging the Tosu to Takao-Onsen section of mainline, and station platform rejigs.  Also don't need new bridges as the mini shinkansen is within cape gauge loading gauge.

Edited June 9, 2018 by katoftw

[Densha]

I think kvp actually wanted to convert cape gauge lines to dual gauge lines. So not just one track 1067mm and one track 1435mm, but both tracks having three rails to support both cape gauge and standard gauge at the same time. Basically the situation as in the Seikan Tunnel.

 

The big advantage with that kind of situation is that you create a real double tracked line that way, that can be used in a very flexible manner by not only mini Shinkansen, but also by local/rapid and freight trains. I think that is a much better solution than what is currently the situation on the Ou Main Line, where converting one cape gauge track into 1435mm basically resulted into two parallel single track lines.

[katoftw]

Multiple sections of the Akita shinkansen line are dual gauge also, especially around stations.  Hence what I typed.  I'm guessing if you don't know how the mini shinkansens operate with Japan?  Then it is difficult to converse these options then.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2018 by katoftw

[JR 500系]

4 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Multiple sections of the Akita shinkansen line are dual gauge also, especially around stations.  Hence what I typed.  I'm guessing if you don't know how the mini shinkansens operate with Japan?  Then it is difficult to converse these options then.

 

 

 

Hhmmm... I see that the turnout is only for the 1067 gauge train, meaning the 1435 or the Komachi wouldn't not be able to do the turnout switch? I was wondering about the turnouts till I saw it in the video you posted above at 0:07.... It would be interesting to see a dual gauge turnout! (if that's any in the first place though). 

[Densha]

22 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Multiple sections of the Akita shinkansen line are dual gauge also, especially around stations.  Hence what I typed.  I'm guessing if you don't know how the mini shinkansens operate with Japan?  Then it is difficult to converse these options then.

Yeah, I'm not that familiar with the mini Shinkansen lines. A quick look wikipedia and google maps shows that these dual gauge sections are pretty scarce though. I found one here for example, but it's just one of the two lines being dual gauged. And a few km's ahead it's already back to one 1067mm and one 1435mm track. And the scene in the video you linked is pretty similar. That is still way less flexible than for example the Seikan Tunnel, where 100% of the line features dual track. The question is whether that flexibility is really needed or not.

[katoftw]

I don't know the specifics behind Japans railroading rules.  But I'm guessing "IF" they wanted to go over 130kph, then they wouldn't allow too much dual gauge.  It would have to be separate running tracks.  But Tosu to Takao-Onsen at 130kph and the rest up to 280kph should make the trip to Nagasaki much quicker than the current Kamome.  Saves building a completely new trunk line.

 

But in the end, I think they'll just go with the relay services.  Once they kick into action.  I'm sure the call for a full line for locals and travelers will kick into a vocal crowd and somewhere the money needed will be found.

[kvp]

4 hours ago, katoftw said:

Multiple sections of the Akita shinkansen line are dual gauge also, especially around stations.  Hence what I typed.  I'm guessing if you don't know how the mini shinkansens operate with Japan?  

As Densha pointed out, i was talking about allowing full shinkansen loading gauge like in the Seikan tunnel. This is more expensive than a mini shinkansen, but much cheaper than the grade separated full speed shinkansen line. Speed limits could be up to 160 km/h as in Europe.

 

ps: Dual gauge turnouts did exist in Japan and the aforementioned Hakone-Tozan line did use a lot of them until the dual gauge operation ceased on the Odawara to Hakone-Yumoto section.

[Khaul]

There variable gauge high speed trains in daily usage in Spain. I don’t get why the Japanese engineers cannot make their system work.

[kvp]

1 hour ago, Khaul said:

There variable gauge high speed trains in daily usage in Spain. I don’t get why the Japanese engineers cannot make their system work.

Imho mostly cost and patents. The spanish system moves the wheels on the axles while the weight of the train is still supported on them. The japanese system stretches the axles while the weight of the train is supported on rollers under the side bearing blocks. The japanese system allows relatively speedy movement through the passive changer system, while the spanish system is slower and has active components in the changer gate, not in the bogies. In the end it would be cheaper to just build the missing link between the two existing shinkansen systems than to build and maintain a fleet of gauge changing mini shinkansen sets. The tech is good in both cases but the price points are different.