Nagasaki Shinkansen maybe not to use Free Gauge Train

[Densha]

With the Free Gauge Train still not working as JR wants it to, the future of the FGT is becoming unsure. Votes are being raised to use a relay service between Takeo-Onsen and Shin-Tosu on the 1067mm line, with the Nagasaki Shinkansen practically only running between Nagasaki and Takeo-Onsen.

 

Article: http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201602240076

[katoftw]

All good in my books.

 

It will also speed up the construct of the Takeo-Onsen to Shin-Tosu section.

 

They did the same thing with the Kumamoto to Kagoshima-Chuo.  It then forced to politicians to hurry up with the Hakata to Kumamoto section.

[trainsforever8]

But those Free Gauche trucks, they look complicated to maintain, no? 

[jpdorgan]

I actually live in Takeo. It's been interesting to watch the project unfold.

 

One of the things not mentioned in the article is that the project actually passes through areas that have never had a rail connection. Those people are champing at the bit. A delay would be rough for them.

 

P.S.

I am new on the forum but I thought I should speak on this.

 

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[cteno4]

Jp,

 

Thanks for piping in here, boots on the ground information really is the best! It's much appreciated.

 

Jeff

[katoftw]

I actually live in Takeo. It's been interesting to watch the project unfold.

 

One of the things not mentioned in the article is that the project actually passes through areas that have never had a rail connection. Those people are champing at the bit. A delay would be rough for them.

Thanks for you insight.  Curious if any stations are planned for between Takeo and Higashisonogi?  Otherwise they ain't getting anything then?

 

edit//  Just found a map that includes a Ureshino station

 

I'm guessing those on the Nagasaki Mainline are the opposite view?  Say Hezin-Yamaguchi to Ishiyama?  They know they are gonna suffer reduced services?  Even a new 3rd sector railway?  Or extension to Shimabara Railway?

Edited February 25, 2016 by katoftw

[jpdorgan]

It's definitely possible that the people on the mainline aren't happy since they will probably run the regular expresses less often.

 

Honestly, it seems like the shinkansen is going to cut across an area with no rail and then still go through areas that are also serviced by the mainline. So I'm not sure it will effect anyone who already has express service.

 

I doubt anything will get taken over by a private company. There's only one in the area and it's very small. Also, the populations between Saga city and Nagasaki are pretty small.

 

That's all mostly conjecture. Most people I know don't really talk about the shinkansen. It's just an ongoing thing that people are preparing for.

 

I will say it has help contribute to a housing boom in Takeo. New building are springing up like weeds in town.

 

Sorry for such a long post.

 

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[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

IMHO, if they insisted on building the Takeo-Onsen to Nagasaki section for the first phase while leaving the Takeo-Onsen to Shin-Tosu section still primarily served by conventional lines, the best option for this one would be constructing dual gauge track between Shin-Tosu and Takeo-Onsen (with the Mini-Shinkansen profile)...

[katoftw]

I guess they thought they could overcome the thrust bearing issues for FGTs.  But still are having issues.

 

If they had known the above issues, then yeah in the planning stages they could've gone with dual guage.  But considering they are all in now.  It is very difficult and expensive just to make a huge change of plans like that.

 

After looking at a map, I'm guessing the line between Takeo-Onsen and Hezin-Yamaguchi must be the sticking point.  It is only single line.  Hezin-Yamaguchi to Shin-Tosa us all double track.

 

One solution is to double the lines between those to stations to prevent shuttle services being delayed.  Saga Prefecture doesn't wanna pay up for the line to be doubled.  And I'd agree with them.  It is only a temporary measure until the Shinkansen line is extended to Hizen-Yamaguchi.  But every station between is double track.  So I'm unsure what really the issue is?

 

But Nagasaki want now.  They have already put their money in for their region.  And they want results when promised.  Saga want to hold off until the FGT is ready so they don't have to pay for new tracks.

 

Instead of blowing huge amounts of yen on a temporary measure.  They should look at extending the Shinkansen line to Hizen-Yamaguchi as part of this first stage.  Mr Abe has previously said he wants more Shinkansen lines open by 2020 and is willing to throw yen at these projects.  So prefect timing for JRK to ask for more funding.

Edited February 25, 2016 by katoftw

[jpdorgan]

Personally, I would agree with the notion of extending the shinkansen up to hizen-yamaguchi but I can think of some reasons why it might not have been done.

 

1. Saga is the second poorest prefecture in Japan. Money is always a concern here. (As a side note, the "we need more shinkansen and we're willing to pay for it" seems like it's always about Honshu. Kyushsu often gets shafted.)

 

2. Saga is still very agricultural. The farmers tend to be fiercer and more outspoken about tracks and imminent domain.

 

3. Hizen-yamaguchi, as stations go, is a mess. It is a small station in the middle of nowhere that happens to be the split between Sasebo and Nagasaki. It's already too small for what it does and overhauling it would probably be super expensive. I think that's why they put the shinkansen split in Takeo instead. My guess is that they were hoping to ignore it as long as possible.

 

That's just my two cents. I don't have any first hand knowledge of the decision making process.

 

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[katoftw]

3. Hizen-yamaguchi, as stations go, is a mess. It is a small station in the middle of nowhere that happens to be the split between Sasebo and Nagasaki. It's already too small for what it does and overhauling it would probably be super expensive. I think that's why they put the shinkansen split in Takeo instead. My guess is that they were hoping to ignore it as long as possible.

haha - You just described a lot of rural stations in Japan.

 

It is gonna have a new elevated station built sometime in the future to service the Shinkansen.  So build before 2022 or build 6-8 years later?  In the end, it will still be built.

Edited February 25, 2016 by katoftw

[jpdorgan]

It's actually already semi-elevated. It's one of the kind where the ticket window and other stuff is elevated but the platforms are on ground level.

 

If it's on the schedule to be redone, they'll probably be starting soon. I should drive out and check it out.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

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[katoftw]

Is there a route map in Japanese?  As in proper map?  Not just a red line with a few dots for stations?  More an engineering drawings etc?

 

I google mapped it, and you can see some construction or viaducts.  But I'm lost in some areas of the route.

Edited February 25, 2016 by katoftw

[kvp]

The whole problem seems to be that they would like to avoid building a full shinkansen route between Shin-Tosu (on the right) and Takeo-Onsen (marked on the left). This is a 40 something kilometer distance which would lie along the current Nagasaki mainline and Sasebo line, the latter which is a single tracked rural branch line at some points along the route. The idea was to use the gauge change trains to go from being full shinkansen to a limited express, then down to a branchline interurban, then back to a shinkansen again.

 

Personally i think it's not worth it. The idea behind the gauge change train is good, but the change process itself with all the exposed sliding parts are seemingly not up to the requirements for daily usage on dusty rural lines. The descriptions mention an oil seal fault on a thrust bearing, which could be caused by all the dust getting into the bogie mechanisms. Redesigning them with fixed axles and sliding wheels instead of sliding half axles would be possible and even make the trains more robust. (the propulsion transmission and the brake discs would stay at the same place with the sealed bearings on the ends and only the wheels would move on the axles along with their locking mechanism, this is what the spanish system uses)

 

However, i would build the missing link instead, even if it's not fully up to elevated shinkansen levels, like laying the tracks on the ground with chain link fences and elevated overpasses for the farmers. This would be a cheaper, more european style high speed route, very similar to the mini shinkansen lines north of Tokyo, just newly built. It would not cost so much more than upgrading the current single track sasebo interurban line to double tracked limited express standards, but it would leave out the gauge change trains, leave the currently existing lines alone and could be constructed as fast as the upgrades, but it would result in a true high speed line. Of course, this is just my personal oppinion...

Edited February 25, 2016 by kvp

[jpdorgan]

I definitely agree that just extending the line to Hizen-yamaguchi would be the best choice. I don't know much gauge change part but I would assume that they are thinking that getting it right would mean they could interconnect a lot of disparate shinkansen routes with less investment. Good on paper...

 

Also, I'll see if I can find a good map. I know there is a good one of the Takeo area portion in city hall...

 

edit:

I found some links with slightly better maps but they are in fine Japanese digital document tradition... too pixelated to read most of the kanji. These are links to the info pages. There are links to the routes and other info to explore on there.

Anyway, here you go.

From Saga-ken:

http://www.pref.saga.lg.jp/web/at-contents/kenseijoho/shinkansen/explanation.html

From Nagaski-ken:

https://www.pref.nagasaki.jp/bunrui/machidukuri/doro-kotsu/shinkansen/gaiyo-shinkansen/

 

 

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Edited February 25, 2016 by jpdorgan

[Densha]

I think it may be interesting to upgrade the whole Shin-Tosu - Takeo-Onsen section to a full dual track dual gauge main line (only on the portions needed obviously). That makes for the best interoperability so that both conventional 1067mm trains (mainly for locals) and Shinkansen can both run on the section and I reckon it will be cheaper than building an entire new Shinkansen line.

[kvp]

Dual gauge is not really possible here because of two reasons:

-the speeds and stopping patterns on the line types are completly different

-the Sasebo line has more level crossings than an average tram line in Tokyo

-the catenary voltages for the two systems are different and this has caused large problems on the seikan tunnel route

 

I would say they should keep the old lines as they are now and just build a high speed line that avoids the inner city areas by cutting through the fields with a newly built ground based double track high speed line. This is much cheaper as it's a green field construction with no disruptions to current traffic and no need to rebuild any stations. The only extra cost is the price of the land and the over/under passes that needs to be built for the locals. But this is still much cheaper than elevating the whole route and as a bonus, it can be done faster than any reconstruction. (i talk about the construction phase as i have no ideas about the political and financial battles required)

[Densha]

I don't know about the first two points you mention, but differences between catenary voltages can always be overcome one way or another. A quick look on wikipedia made clear that the Kyushu Shinkansen uses 25kV, while Kyushu 1067mm gauge lines use 20kV. Just like with the mini-Shinkansen, where the Tohoku Shinkansen is 25kV and the Akita and Yamagata Shinkansen use 20kV.

[ToniBabelony]

I don't know about the first two points you mention, but differences between catenary voltages can always be overcome one way or another. A quick look on wikipedia made clear that the Kyushu Shinkansen uses 25kV, while Kyushu 1067mm gauge lines use 20kV. Just like with the mini-Shinkansen, where the Tohoku Shinkansen is 25kV and the Akita and Yamagata Shinkansen use 20kV.

 

I'd also like to know the sources of the first two statements.

1. Stopping and speeds will be different obviously, like on the Akita and Yamagata shinkansen lines. How different they will be, we won't know, unless kvp has some information source about this;

2. More level crossings than the two average tram lines in Tokyo. Hard or not hard. That depends on how you interpret 'average'. In total, or average per kilometer, of which both a statistical source would be nice to have. The mini shinkansen (Akita and Yamagata) both have level crossings that are passed at 160kph;

3. The voltage difference has been overcome quite some time ago. It was called the EF30 (1960s) and other AC(/AC)/DC material from the same era, which lead to the disappearance of locomotive swaps at Moji station: http://deadsection.image.coocan.jp/dead_sec/moji/moji.htm Not only a problem at the Kanmon tunnel, but also on the Hokuriku and Tōhoku main lines. This is quite a moot problem.

 

 

The only extra cost is the price of the land and the over/under passes that needs to be built for the locals. But this is still much cheaper than elevating the whole route and as a bonus, it can be done faster than any reconstruction. (i talk about the construction phase as i have no ideas about the political and financial battles required)

 

Yeah, well... You're talking about the cost of the price of land and construction, without the costs of the political and financial battles. So you're pretty much talking about something you don't know about, as this is all connected. I would really like to know your sources on this as well. You must have better sources at hand than someone living in the locale it seems!

[kvp]

First i was talking about that a mixed gauge shared track interurban/shinkansen operation would be too complex and sensitive to technical problems. Slow commuters and shinkansen can't really operate on the same network without dramatically decreasing the speed of the faster one.

 

Level crossings: Some sections on the sasebo line are crossed by every street that happen to go towards the line. It's completly unacceptable to keep them closed most of the day as higher speeds require earlier closing to allow braking in case of a blocked crossing. Also, unguarded crossings are ok on an interurban but imho too dangerous even on a mini shinkansen. Getting this right might be more expensice than completly avoiding the town.

 

Ac/dc/etc: the current rolling stock on these lines are not 25kV AC tolerant. The current shinkansen stock is not multivoltage. This would mean new rolling stock or rebuilding for either one or both train categories which would mean even higher costs for little gain.

 

I was talking about the engineering side. Imho it would be more cost effective to build a separate shinkansen line than to try to hack the current systems together. This rational idea could be overruled by local politicians and costs could go up for political reasons that could even make the gauge change technology financially viable for a roughly 40 km section. I never said that my ideas were the only path, just that the dual gauge system was not a good idea to begin with and the gauge change technology is too complex for such a small distance. Imho there are cheaper and easier to construct solutions for this route. One of them is using separate tracks for both with less stations (0) for the shinkansen and keeping the small stations along the existing line.

 

Ps: i's not special secret information that i used just a bit of common sense...

[miyakoji]

Very interesting thread.  Thank you for posting, jpdorgan.

 

I doubt anything will get taken over by a private company. There's only one in the area and it's very small. Also, the populations between Saga city and Nagasaki are pretty small.

 

 By private do you mean a third sector company?  Lots of recent shinkansen construction, say in the last 20 years, has resulted in the local JR company abandoning the 1067mm line parallel to the new shinkansen.  Three 3rd sector companies were created to continue operations on conventional lines in the Hokuriku region, the Hisatsu Orange line was created to continue operation of the Kagoshima main line between Yatsushiro and Sendai, the Aoimori and Iwate Ginga continued operation of the Tohoku main line after the extension of the shinkansen north of Morioka opened, etc.

 

If the FGT and dual-gauge track cannot be used and a pure 1435mm line is constructed, I'll bet JRQ will want to be rid of the parallel sections, or all of, the Nagasaki and Sasebo lines.  Either a third sector company (or companies) will be formed to continue conventional service, or they'll be abandoned, which I assume no one will find acceptable.

[jpdorgan]

If they do abandon the FGT idea and build parallel lines, a third sector company absolutely could be formed to take operations. I'm not an expert on this stuff. Mostly just a casual observer who reads the local news.

 

If they did run it under a third sector company, I wonder which portions would kept under JR. The new shinkansen won't cover Takeo to Sasebo; would JR continue to operate that portion but put the Hizen-yamaguchi to Nagasaki under another company?

 

I honestly don't think they will abandon the FGT plan entirely but that's just my guess.

 

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[ToniBabelony]

First i was talking about that a mixed gauge shared track interurban/shinkansen operation would be too complex and sensitive to technical problems. Slow commuters and shinkansen can't really operate on the same network without dramatically decreasing the speed of the faster one.

 

That's why there are Mini-Shinkansen. They work quite well. It's not about speed, but about direct through operations, so there is no need to change trains.

 

Level crossings: Some sections on the sasebo line are crossed by every street that happen to go towards the line. It's completly unacceptable to keep them closed most of the day as higher speeds require earlier closing to allow braking in case of a blocked crossing. Also, unguarded crossings are ok on an interurban but imho too dangerous even on a mini shinkansen. Getting this right might be more expensice than completly avoiding the town.

 

Keikyū has had 120kph operations for a very long time with a massive amount of railway crossings. Lowering speed is fine, since it's about eliminating the need to change. Scrolling along the discussed part of the Sasebo line, there are relatively little crossings, which can be overcome with simply elevating the tracks, along with upgrading the tracks (it is planned to double track the section anyway), make underpasses (as has been done on the Mini-Shinkansen a lot) and/or eliminating a few crossings only used by farmers.

 

The maximum speed where the Shinkansen would run is currently already at 130kph (Nagasaki Main Line), which is the same as the Mini-Shinkansen, which also have quite a number of level crossings left. Maybe it's a good idea to watch a video and see how ridiculously long these crossings are closed: https://youtu.be/TYol11bVoNw

 

Ac/dc/etc: the current rolling stock on these lines are not 25kV AC tolerant. The current shinkansen stock is not multivoltage. This would mean new rolling stock or rebuilding for either one or both train categories which would mean even higher costs for little gain.

 

Again a moot point. New rolling stock needs to be ordered anyway, since by the time this project is done, most rolling used right now will be in need of replacement or refurbishment. Next to that, the Shinkansen rolling stock could well be made for both 20kV AC and 25kV AC operation, as opposed to rebuild existing rolling stock. Just run on 20kV between Shin-Tosu and Takeo Onsen. It's not that hard to imagine.

 

I was talking about the engineering side. Imho it would be more cost effective to build a separate shinkansen line than to try to hack the current systems together. This rational idea could be overruled by local politicians and costs could go up for political reasons that could even make the gauge change technology financially viable for a roughly 40 km section. I never said that my ideas were the only path, just that the dual gauge system was not a good idea to begin with and the gauge change technology is too complex for such a small distance. Imho there are cheaper and easier to construct solutions for this route. One of them is using separate tracks for both with less stations (0) for the shinkansen and keeping the small stations along the existing line.

 

I never agreed, nor disagreed, about any dual-gauge system before. It will however be more viable than a gauge changing train, which has been worked on for decades already without any success. A dual gauge system has been in use on the Ou Main Line (Akita Shinkansen) (between Jingūji and Mineyoshikawa) for a bit, so it is a viable option. Next to that, a part of the Hokkaidō Shinkansen will also be dual gauge (between Shin-nakaoguni and Kikonai). Keeping the milder climate in Kyūshū in mind (less temperature swings), this could work well enough.

 

Ps: i's not special secret information that i used just a bit of common sense...

 

'Common sense' is very debatable. Supporting claims however makes argumenting stronger.

[katoftw]

Thank you do Toni for educating the unknowledgeable.  It is common sense after all. haha

 

One thing I would say is that if they dual gauged the track.  They would need to double track it also cos the Hizen-Yamaguchi to Shin-Tosu section of line is very busy.

 

The Akita and Yamaguchi Shinkansen dual gauge tracks never required doubling as they weren't busy mainlines like the above explained section of track.

Edited February 26, 2016 by katoftw

[katoftw]

The whole problem seems to be that they would like to avoid building a full shinkansen route between Shin-Tosu (on the right) and Takeo-Onsen (marked on the left).

A full shinkansen route between Shin-Tosu and Takeo-Onsen is stage 2 of the Nagasaki Shinkansen project.

 

What "they" are trying to do is avoid extra passenger transfers by not turning to a relay service like with the Kyushu Shinkansen.  They already will have a transfer at Shin-Tosu in their current FGT plan, so adding another will be 2 transfers for travelling between Hakata and Nagasaki.

 

Option 1 - A relay between Hakata to Hizen-Yamaguchi or Takeo-Onsen.

Option 2 - A mini-shinkansen between Shin-Tosu and Nagasaki.  This option could be hooked up to the Kyushu shinkansen which would delete the transfer issues.

 

Shin-Yatsushiro when it was a transfer station...

 

Some info on the old relay services and Kyushu Shinkansen building processes:- http://www.omegacentre.bartlett.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/JAPAN_SHINKANSEN_PROFILE.pdf

Edited February 26, 2016 by katoftw