DK

[domino]

This white one is long distance here in Denmark , the red is local train.

[scott]

Even though it's pretty basic, I like the white-with-red-doors color scheme.

 

Just curious--why is the Danish railway still running diesels, when all the surrounding countries have electrified?

[disturbman]

Danes have plans to electify the whole system, which is very small compared to others, but only after they upgrad it to ETCS. So aroung 2030/2050.

 

But you know, I'm sure you do, the other countries are still running a lot of diesels. Mostly on regional lines but still. In fact electrification is very expensive (to implement and to maintain) and is not interesting to do when you don't have lot of passenger to haul or hard steep to climb. I think, I've read things about it but I'm not sure anymore, that Danemark wanted to but it was so costly that they prefer to invest in new diesel rolling stock.

[to2leo]

In other words, just like N. America....

 

I think the expensive wiring might come to a past as we enter the Hydrogen age.  Starting with Hybrid cars then trains.

[disturbman]

Yeah, I've big doubt on hydrogen technology. You have to produce the hydrogen which is for the moment very costly and difficult, it takes a lot of energetic ressources. And then, depending which method you are using, you are producing water modelcules. Which is also a very big GHG. I have in mind that, in cities, producing a lot of water molecules could be a very big problem. But it will be really a problem when cars will run with this type of motor.

[Tenorikuma]

Yeah, hydrogen is a red herring for the most part. It takes a lot more energy to produce hydrogen than just to use electricity directly.

 

If we're waiting for a technological breakthrough, what we need is ultracapacitors that hold more energy than a battery and can be charged almost instantaneously.

[disturbman]

It's coming. Alstom and the RATP are testing this technology on a parisian tram at the moment.

[scott]

That's a new one on me; are they any articles online about the French example?

[disturbman]

I've just saw one in english at the Railway Gazette

[scott]

Thanks, Vincent!

[cteno4]

Yeah, I've big doubt on hydrogen technology. You have to produce the hydrogen which is for the moment very costly and difficult, it takes a lot of energetic ressources. And then, depending which method you are using, you are producing water modelcules. Which is also a very big GHG. I have in mind that, in cities, producing a lot of water molecules could be a very big problem. But it will be really a problem when cars will run with this type of motor.

 

yes but the idea is to produce the hydrogen in bulk with fuel sources you cant use easily for vehicles and can only do clean when doing at larger scales to make affordable. also possible to excess energy (when production is exceeding need) to make hydrogen as sort of a battery. its not that difficult to produce hydrogen, mainly getting to a scale to turn the corner to make it more cost effective. also different storage and transmission of the fuel which is also another challenge to implement to get over the hump. its a stopgap battery of sorts really.

 

water vapor is already produced by burning fossil fuels, about the same amount per mile traveled as hydrogen does, so this is a wash. the water could be condensed easily if there were that much water vapor being created to cause significant problems. sequestering CO2 of the other hand is a real problem and requires a lot of energy to do so.

 

it is a good technology to be used in the right situations. its been a POLITICAL red herring as its been used to allow the auto manufacturers to skip doing any interim advances in auto efficiencies by holding out that hydrogen is just around the corner to save the day. meanwhile toyota and honda went right along and showed you could get nice efficiencies with hybrids...

 

problem with using electrical straight for many situations is the transmission ends up loosing a very significant proportion of your energy generated. same goes in trying to transport the hydrogen. where it pays off is when you can produce it close to where you need it with 'extra' or very cheap power that would be hard to use otherwise in off times.

 

I think the big point is that all these technologies have something to offer in the right situations. problem is usually we want a global solution that will solve all our problems with one solution. i have not found that life usually works that way...

 

cheers

 

jeff