JMRI - Hardware needed for Signal Switches

[inobu]

Yep, you are going in the right sequence. Layout Editors allows you to get the basic components in order. Its the depiction of your layout. Panel Editor allows you to create a control panel with graphical icons to control what you see in the Layout Editor. Being able to control Layout Editor you can test everything first then make the physical connection once you get it working and happy with its operation. 

 

Here are the two working side by side. Section 1 is linked to a graphical LED on the Panel. What ever you see or do on Layout Editor you will create the graphical depiction on Panel Editor. Although they can do the same thing Panel Editor gives the finished look.

 

 

The tables are the center point. This is where you piece them together. You are able to test the function and operation. When you connect the actual Loconet components they will up date the tables which reflects the states. In this case LS801 is called Dector 801. The states is Active which either you click the state button or Loconet will relay that command that set the state on the table. Notice that everything is function but I do not have the actual command station connected. I am using simulation mode. This way I can test everything on the PC and once happy I wire it up on the layout.

 

The sensor table below has a LED labeled IS801 or user name LED 801. This LED will illuminate the red on the Panel whenever block 1 is active or occupied. I have an audio file attached to it. JMRI will play a momentary bell wav file whenever it is first occupied. It is this table that allows for the mapping of different devices or component which you will see later. 

 

 

 

You have made good progress.

 

You caught up with the other page. Next is the logic segment which I guess I need to add. It is a bit more challenging.

The logic deals with the if, and, or variables. This is where you make the program association with the naming convention.

 

 

 

Inobu 

Edited March 22, 2016 by inobu

[surfingstephens]

Ok, starting down the worm hole of signaling today.  Have that first feeling of no clue what is happening. I just printed out your write up from the other post and am about to go back out to the garage for another attempt.   A few questions to help me get this straight in my head.

   1. Do I need to create Signal Masts?     I created signal heads no problem, and can control them.   Tried creating a signal Mast and associating them to the heads, but it did not make a lot of sense and I don't see Masts in your example.

   2. My first attempt I will again, keep it simple.  No switch logic yet, just red/green/yellow for each block.  I will be managing 4 blocks(not including the siding at this time) on my loop.  

   3  For the blocks(red/green/yellow) do you only use the "top" signal head?  Is that the standard.  

   4. If that is true, Then each DRV(1-8) means I can wire up only 8 signals for 8 blocks?  I am assuming I would just use the (A1 Main) for Drivers 1-8.    For example:  DRV1   (257,258), DRV2 (265.266)....   Is that correct?

 

Back to the garage to take another try at it with your write up printed out. 

 

I can see this signaling has a much LARGER learning curve than the blocks without a doubt.

 

By the way the first twenty years of my career I was a software developer, so I have some advantage dealing with the Logix stuff you are describing.

[surfingstephens]

Back, and success!   My questions in the previous post are still there, but I followed your write up and I got it mostly working.  Here is a short video showing it in action..

 

 https://youtu.be/JgvTeEv4wUM​

 

 

Next questions:

   1. Do you keep your Logix coding to each signal head.   I am guessing it would be easier to manage if I insure that anything that changes the color of the head, should be coded for that signal head.

   2.  Note I have code for Green/Red and also for Yellow/Green.  The second logic (yellow/green) is looking at the next block and if it is occupied it sets the previous block to yellow.  Correct?

   2. You will notice on the video where the light goes from Red, quick Green, then yellow.    This is because the  switch is not part of a detection block so for that brief moment the signal shows all clear before the train hits the second detection block.    Not sure if there is a way around that problem?

 

 

I am going to go ahead a connect up 4 heads, one for each block to simulate it all a bit more.

 

The next BIG step is how to stop a train when it hits a  Section and the next Section in front of it is Red and then make it start again when it is green.

 

As always, feedback is appreciated!

Edited March 29, 2016 by surfingstephens

[kvp]

The color logic is usually to look at the block behind the signal and the one behind that. (If) next block occupied = red (else) next free and 2nd next occupied = yellow (else) green. For the turnout area it's either given a dedicated block and or-ed with the station tracks or given a virtual block that is set by the preceeding and cleared by the following real blocks, the latter two depending on the actual running direction.

 

Train stopping needs transponding or train following (counting) to know the dcc address of the train and a dedicated stopping section before the signal. Transponding must be active in the front loco/car for it to work. (for reversing an emu, you have to switch between the two transponding cab car decoders) A threadle sensor can also provide front axle location, but that's a different technology, mostly used in analog.

[inobu]

Ok, starting down the worm hole of signaling today.  Have that first feeling of no clue what is happening. I just printed out your write up from the other post and am about to go back out to the garage for another attempt.   A few questions to help me get this straight in my head.

   1. Do I need to create Signal Masts?     I created signal heads no problem, and can control them.   Tried creating a signal Mast and associating them to the heads, but it did not make a lot of sense and I don't see Masts in your example.

   2. My first attempt I will again, keep it simple.  No switch logic yet, just red/green/yellow for each block.  I will be managing 4 blocks(not including the siding at this time) on my loop.  

   3  For the blocks(red/green/yellow) do you only use the "top" signal head?  Is that the standard.  

   4. If that is true, Then each DRV(1-8) means I can wire up only 8 signals for 8 blocks?  I am assuming I would just use the (A1 Main) for Drivers 1-8.    For example:  DRV1   (257,258), DRV2 (265.266)....   Is that correct?

 

Back to the garage to take another try at it with your write up printed out. 

 

I can see this signaling has a much LARGER learning curve than the blocks without a doubt.

 

By the way the first twenty years of my career I was a software developer, so I have some advantage dealing with the Logix stuff you are describing.

1. It is like a grouping. The LED's make up a signal head, a single signal head can be a mast or a group of signal heads can be a mast. It depends on the application and what warning you are trying to conveying the train engineer. Remember the Aspect is the signal convention. It can be 2 LED's or 6 it all depends on the aspect used. 

2. Remember the signal heads tells the train engineer either keep going at normal speed (green) or slow down (yellow) because you may have to stop at the next block after this (current) one you are in. The red means you need to stop in this block. 

3. The signal mast from digitrax is kinda like an all purpose mast. It gives us something to use. In some cases you have to ignore the bottom LED's and tape the off or vise versa. They are an economical solution for both us and Digitrax. 

4. It depends on what and how you set up the system. If you use their mast then you are correct. With the TMSK you can configure it in a manner that you can have more heads. It all depends on how it is used.

Using this component you can set up what ever kind of mast you want. You can attach the leads to energizes what ever signal configuration you want. If you use only their mast the you are limited to the 8.

 

Inobu

Edited March 26, 2016 by inobu

[inobu]

Next questions:

   1. Do you keep your Logix coding to each signal head.   I am guessing it would be easier to manage if I insure that anything that changes the color of the head, should be coded for that signal head.

   2.  Note I have code for Green/Red and also for Yellow/Green.  The second logic (yellow/green) is looking at the next block and if it is occupied it sets the previous block to yellow.  Correct?

   2. You will notice on the video where the light goes from Red, quick Green, then yellow.    This is because the  switch is not part of a detection block so for that brief moment the signal shows all clear before the train hits the second detection block.    Not sure if there is a way around that problem?

 

1. Yes, it makes it easier. You basically have the effected block use its assigned signal head to set the adjacent signal heads to their designated colors. 

2. I think we are saying the same thing but looking at it from the other prospective. The occupied block needs to protect itself by telling the adjacent blocks to warn any approaching train. The occupied block needs a buffer so it will set conditions 2 signal heads in either directions. One telling it to slow down and prepare to stop at the next block.

 

If two trains were 4 blocks apart traveling at the same speed. As the first train occupied a block that block would broadcast the yellow condition 2 blocks out. The trailing train would never see the yellow as the block would clear it self in time. If the training train would speed up it would soon see the yellow condition because it is 2 blocks apart in the buffer zone. The trailing train following the yellow code instruction would slow down and maintain the buffer. 

 

3. I think I saw that. I believe that I added codes to cut LED's off too.

 

I think it is a good time to bring the aspects or code translation into the process. Seeing the NS engine we will assume that it is running on a Norfolk Southern Railroad. NS has its own aspects. This means that the color code represents instructions based on NS rules. 

 

• Your Green/Red is Rule 281 based on a 2 light system which means "Clear" to proceed at authorized speed.
• Your Yellow/Green is Rule 282 based on a 2 light system which means "Approaching Diverging" proceed to take diverging route.

At this point you will see the limitations in the mast as they are single color limiting the ability to duplicate all the conditions needed to create all aspect in the NS code or Rule.

 

 

 

 

Your skill sets are revealed by your progress.

 

Inobu

Edited March 26, 2016 by inobu

[surfingstephens]

Nice explanation  So if I am not going to emulate a particular signalling system for a railroad, what would be the best signalling system to select for a three light system for general use?

 

 

Different Topic:

Remember the issue where the DS51K which powers my Kato switches from track power causes the block to be seen as "occupied" by the BDL168  because of the power draw.   I may have a solution.   It may be able to "shunt" it using a 1k potentiometer as a variable resistor  to "dial in" the sensitivity by block.   I am going to try this today and let you know if it works.  Actually if it does, I am going to document it as many have had this problem as I search the web.     Here is a link I found that quickly discusses the work around and illustrates it well.

 

Skip to the title called "Simple Solution"

 

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/dcc-problems/wiring-related/got-false-occupancy-detection/bd168

 

My local Hobby Train guy pointed me to the idea discussed above, but with the poor documentation picture in the Digitrax manual along with my lack of electrical knowledge I did not quite know how to do it correctly until this link.  Interesting, the hobby guy tells me the outdoor railroad people have to do this because there is "leakage" with the fertilizer used n the yard causing electrical leaks across the rails.   Hope it works for my problem.

 

Here is the resister I am using:

https://www.google.com/search?q=variable+resistor+1k+radio+shack&rlz=1C1LDJZ_enUS506US515&espv=2&biw=2293&bih=874&tbm=isch&imgil=Y7RuFGJdj_3hAM%253A%253Bq7RTYSoJNCfn-M%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.radioshack.com%25252Fproducts%25252F1k-ohm-15-turn-pc-mount-cermet-potentiometer-trimmer&source=iu&pf=m&fir=Y7RuFGJdj_3hAM%253A%252Cq7RTYSoJNCfn-M%252C_&usg=__q2IjscpKQNZgG-YUjaWl1K1_Zss%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjwydKy8-DLAhXI5iYKHZaWDRoQyjcIPQ&ei=mtb3VvCUFcjNmwGWrbbQAQ#imgrc=Y7RuFGJdj_3hAM%3A

 

 

Different Topic 2

By the way, your following comment and picture just saved me a huge amount of work.

 "4. It depends on what and how you set up the system. If you use their mast then you are correct. With the TMSK you can configure it in a manner that you can have more heads. It all depends on how it is used."

 

I just tested soldering a signal mast (that looks realistic) after clipping off the mast supplied by Digitrax.  It worked great, but you would have to solder every head to a pad!   This other way of connecting to a signal head elinates a LOT of soldering work.

Edited March 27, 2016 by surfingstephens

[surfingstephens]

It works!!    I can dial in the sensitivity by block!   This enables me to customize the sensitivity by block and thus I can dial out the power draw created by the switch, but it still correctly sees the train!!  This is great.   I shot a video of it with my phone that I will dump down to Youtube today.  I am also going to hit a few links with the solution as I have not seen it anywhere on the web to help those others like me who find themselves with this problem.   I have no idea why this solution set is not more fully documented by Digitrax.

 

 

​

 

 

Jim

Edited March 27, 2016 by surfingstephens

[inobu]

Good solution to the problem.

 

 

Inobu

[surfingstephens]

I have taken down my test area and turned my attention to my main layout.  While I don't pretend to nearly have it all figured out, I think I have enough of an understanding to start the wiring and set up.   I will be posting pictures as I go.   My first request is to get anyone's input on how to set up the blocks or just some rules of the road of what I should consider or more importantly what NOT to do.      I fully realize there is not ONE correct answer and it depends on what you want to accomplish as well as other limitations.   Let me give you some parameters to explain my goals.

     1. The Red X is where I am in relation to the track.  The other sides are walled off across and to the right and left.  I put in the (directions for a baseline of understanding)

     2. I first want to just primarily set up blocks for the Main Line and possibly the three sidings near the "X" where I stand.  That is the train station.

     3. The big yard on the North side will be done later.   I am willing and able to add a second BDL168 down the road to handle just that yard.  

     3. The main line is two tracks.   Thus every block will be double for the left and right track.

     4.  For now, both tracks will move in a clockwise rotation only.   Probably will keep it that way forever.

     5.  I am working towards some basic automation of trains going around for starters.   I have read up on how many blocks you will need to slow and stop a train to scale.  Not really my goal at this point, but would like them to stop when it is not clear ahead.

     6.  Would be nice to have trains make a lap and then pull into the South sidings if there is a train on the main line stopped.   Just mentioning that because I know it may require more Blocks to make it all happen correctly.

     7.  For this first round I would like  to keep it to 16 blocks maximum as that matches my BDL168

     9.  My longest Train will cover the entire curve of the East Turn.  The other trains are shorter.

 

   

I plan to install the blocks first and then I plan to put in the signaling as well.   I want a signal on every switch on the main line (Red/Green) thrown or not.   I also will put a signal at the beginning of each block.

 

I will try to post of few pictures of what is drawn to give a better view of it.   The drawing is what I am actually using today to run my trains and the switches, so it is accurate.

 

 

 

 

Ok, like I said no wrong answer and no right answer as it is a very subjective topic, but welcome any thoughts or input based on your personal past experiences.  

 

I can start it off with one example.   I have read you should not include switches as part of your blocks, then I have been told it should be part of your block and should end the block just after the switch itself.   Not sure what the pro's and con's are so I am uncertain what the implications are.

   

[surfingstephens]

Picture of the actual track and my board for all the gear.  I left room for another BDL168 and SE8C as well for growth.   

 

You will see some boats above,  Those are all electric R/C boats.   I Oval race them, 6 laps equals 1 mile.     The go between 55mph - 75mph depending on the class of boat and hull design.   A lot of fun!

Edited March 29, 2016 by surfingstephens

[inobu]

Block detection on the switch depends on the layout. If it is a large layout where the switches are blocked from view it makes sense. A train sitting on the switch could be derailed accidentally if the guy running the show does not know it there. If you have visual contact with all switches then I wouldn't worry about it.  

 

I think your best bet is to start on a design document to keep track of what you want the layout to do and what you are currently doing. You will need to be smart in the way you  lay the foundation. If not you will be wasting a lot of time rebuilding. Getting a rail program may help. Anyrail has a free trial for 50 pieces of track. 

 

Inobu

[kvp]

Block detection on the switches in a modell railway environment are mostly useful for the signalling system as the train is not lost between two detected blocks. It won't prevents derailments unless all cars are detectable, which means all axles (or at least all axle groups) have to be detectable. The latter also helps with automatic route release because if it's detectable if a train fully left a block, it's possible to release preset routes without operator interaction. Many route control systems support this mode, but it really requires all wheels to be detectable on all cars. (very much like in real life) Full train block detection also simplifies crossing gate automation.

 

The model railway alternative is usually to detect the locomotive only, or in more advanced cases the locomotive and the caboose/cab cars. For many interior lighting ready japanese trains, pickups are already installed in all cars, so adding resistors is a trivial task (just put them between the power strips in each car).

 

For a simplier alternative, it's possible to use manual route based signalling, where the route determines the entry/exit signals and handle any crossing gates between them. This does not require any automatic block signals, but they can be added easily. For locomotive only detection, the maximal train length and simulated stopping distance will determine the number of stop (red) blocks and the slow (yellow) blocks. The most primitive system uses blocks that are always longer than the longest train. If space doesn't permit this, then a stop window has to be moved across the small blocks, very much like a grainy rolling block system. There are two methods for this, the pull status method, where each block checks the free status of all of its inputs continously and AND-s them, while there is the push method, where block status changes gets pushed (broadcast) to several blocks. The latter is more error prone as it requires state memory and could get out of sync with the actual state.

 

For simple model railway automatic operation, i would suggest point detection, like the Tomix TCS threadle type sensors as they only need metal wheels and could provide very accurate position indication for stopping without complex electronics or block detection and would work well with trains that have the power unit in the middle, which is the usual case for most japanese emu/dmu sets.

 

ps: Connecting a tomix threadle sensor to a BDL168 is possible and requires 5V DC power into the detector's common connection, 10k ohms resistors on the detector's outputs connected with the sensor's side wires and the 5V source's ground to the middle wire. This setup will signal an occpancy when a metal wheel passes the sensor. (note: the wrong polarity could fry the TCS sensors, so be careful) In DC mode, it's possible to use 1 block for each side wire, allowing direction detection, while in DCC, the two side wires can be connected together to the same 10k resistor as DCC doesn't allow running direction detection with a single sensor. (two sensors next to each other could do it though) Block and point detection can be mixed as long as they are connected to separate groups. The TCS sensors have open collector 5V TTL outputs, so be careful never to drive their side wires above 5V DC or without a 10k series pullup resistor or route power into their ground connection.

[surfingstephens]

Done, well it's never really "done", but that is the best part about the hobby.   So, I have wired all the blocks successfully.   Key things I did.

    1. Created a detailed plan.  I even color coded on the diagram each wire for each block.   It makes it much easier when you are under the table for hours.

    2. I did a section at a time and then tested that section before I moved on to the next.

    3. Use the tester the DBL168 comes with to test each block.   Have not even turned on the computer yet as I just focused on getting the wiring correct and tested before I start with the diagram in JMRI

    4. KEY tool is an auto wire stripping tool.  Not sure what they really call them.  I am sure it saved many hours.

    5. Shrink wrapped every connection to ensure there are no shorts later.

    6. Labeled every drop under the table with the ID for that wire.

    7. Labeled everything on top with pieces of tape to keep track of where everything should be and to get an easy visual on the blocks etc.  This will come up after I put in the signals.

 

Not saying it is a pretty wiring job, but it is well documented and everything is in good working order.

 

Going to pause a bit as I am racing electric rc boats this weekend and need to gear up for that and frankly I need a break.   I will next get the JMRI software set up to show the blocks as it goes around.   That test track made a big difference.    Lastly, I intend to put signals in next for all the blocks and also the switches.  Found a very good supplier of lighting (dwarf and signals) from china on ebay at a reasonable price.   Great stuff.    Thanks again for all the help on this forum.  It really has made a difference in the learning curve.

Edited April 6, 2016 by surfingstephens

[inobu]

Good progress.

 

Inobu