DokodemoModule (N Narrow)

[velotrain]

If you want another seriously weird railway as inspiration...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighton_and_Rottingdean_Seashore_Electric_Railway

 

Yes, it's a chunk of Victorian pier which used to go for a trundle along the beach!

 

Let's see - that would be HOw18

[velotrain]

Here is one page of illustrations on Mr. Tsukino's website that inspired me to start this project: http://iqra.jakou.com/works2.html

 

Thanks, Toni - the one near the bottom with the tippers definitely has a NG feel to it.

[velotrain]

Of course, there's no reason someone couldn't do this in O-9 (On18), similar to Totternhoe.

 

This Backwoods Miniatures resin body is designed to fit on the Kato 103 chassis.  Someone added a fan belt and distributor - spark plug wiring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.backwoodsminiatures.com/0n3kits.htm

 

Many NG modelers focus on the industrial settings that the prototypes were often used in, while that may be less true in Japan.  Certainly any line under 2' / 50 cm will be an industrial application, and then you have the estate railways (ex. Gn15).

 

> "I also looked at the Totternhoe example a while ago on the late C. Arendt website, but felt that the continuous layout would be more in line with FREMO and would require stricter rules, which would hamper freedom of expression."

 

While I admire the whole layout from concept (in particular) to execution, my primary  interest in Totternhoe is with the staging - presentation.  I was suggesting this as a possible mode for interpreting your concept.  To some extent they're already doing it, as unlike any other MR I've ever seen they are defining what they created as an "island" on the table / base.  You're proposing that each island be regarded as a separate layout, while they've applied this to a traditional linear "continuous" layout.

 

Totternhoe could be retrofitted to a more literal island representation simply by isolating their shunting locations.  Instead of bridges, they've connected their operational islands with a narrow, single-track line.

 

Here's a well-done video of Totternhoe with some excellent commentary.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WLLFxrQ_ZM

[velotrain]

I thought of this layout when you started the topic, but it took me a while to find the photo.

 

Sort of "islands in the sky"

 

 

 

[ToniBabelony]

@Charles: thank you for the image in your previous link. That's a great kind of image that a participant can go for.

 

At the moment, I'm considering scaling down the project to N-gauge with 6.5mm gauge track (2mm scale, Nm, Nj or Nn3 gauge, ignoring the details) to allow for more scenery. Let's just call it 'N Narrow' from here on, since Nj is more oriented at standard N-scale 9mm rolling stock regauged to 6.5mm tracks. HO Narrow might be more accessible, but because this project is still in its development and brainstorm phase, I can still decide on changing things radically. Manufacturers like Rokuhan sell nice track systems with girder bridges, like Tomix and Kato do, but in Z-gauge (6.5mm), so this concept can easily be scaled down as a concept.

 

The main reason to do this is to make the system interoperable with T-Trak modules. Because T-Trak has the rail height at 100mm, A potential is there to have this system go below these tracks at a convenient 50mm height or so.

 

Another reason for this is the abundance of N-scale details here in Japan, as well as the potential to easily re-gauge standard N-scale rolling stock to 6.5mm gauge. N Narrow gauge is also slowly but steadily gaining more popularity here, thanks to little companies like Toma Model Works and even smaller ones. Next to that, Z-gauge track has also become widely available, making this change quite viable.

 

That all said, this is a thought I'm having and nothing has been decided upon, though I am really really tempted by this idea. Narrow gauge has always been interesting, but having to go let go of N-scale for 1/87 would be very difficult to do.

 

P.s. the module/island I've been working on will be lost if I continue with this change (tracks salvaged), but sometimes sacrifices have to be made to improve upon.

[velotrain]

Hi Toni - Thanks for the explanation.  I think I'm heading in your original direction, but with a twist.  If I actually do anything, I'll start a new thread.

 

Back when I was working in HOn30 / HOe, the module group I belonged to primarily modeled the Maine two-footers, but wasn't anal about it.  I found myself being intrigued by NG from around the world, and would dream of building a module for each country I was interested in - England / Wales, France, Germany, Austria, India, Australia, etc.  I actually have some equipment from each of those countries, but some of it such as the Aussie sugar cane cars and the slate mining equipment are unbuilt.  Some of it, such as the DHR equipment, was built by specialists in the UK.

 

Your idea got me thinking about building an island for each of the countries, probably with a "typical" station, but perhaps another structure.  I think I have more engines from Germany than any other country, so might build an enginehouse for that, or maybe some potato houses or something else unique for Maine, such as a covered watertank - to keep it from freezing.

 

I got to further thinking that if I took it to meets, it could be a puzzle, and operators would need to get each train to the appropriate island - with no tips from me on the nationality of either.  I am planning to get one of the inside corner modules from T-Kits for the yard, but plan to use irregularly shaped foam for the others.  I think I will go with the flat-black painted flush sides.

 

I'm curious - you mention "Because T-Trak has the rail height at 100mm".  I don't know if the US and Japan have different standards (there's that word again  ;-) on this, because the two US manufactures of modules list a 2 3/4" deck height.  I don't know if there is an assumption that the modeler will be adding foam to this or what.  One of them does offer the top recessed by an inch, so you can use a 1" foam top for "recessed" scenery.

 

Perhaps the major issue I see is electrical, especially if I try to implement the puzzle idea.  Since the islands will generally have just a single track (perhaps a double-ended siding on some), I'll need a means of turning off power locally once that train is parked.  This will also add another element/challenge to those attempting the puzzle, as they will need to plan out their order of departure from the yard.

 

I'll likely use Peco "crazy track" and their Set-track turnouts, as I recall their being the sharpest radius, and I've always found that the Electrofrog points provide reliable power routing with positive spring control.  On top of that, I believe I have all the needed track on hand - somewhere.

 

Good luck with your project.

 

[ToniBabelony]

I'm not sure about US standards for T-Trak, other than that they have 33mm track centre distance, as opposed to 25mm in Japan. These are official standards, set years ago by RM Magazine: http://white.zero.jp/t-trak/standard/official.html Only the basic numbers and electrical standards are to be followed. Everything in between the module ends (except the 50x44mm profile 'round the tracks) is free to fill in to your own liking. US standards seem to have a more flexible approach: http://ttrak.org/standards.html

 

The T-Trak meetings are about getting together and running your trams/appropriate trains in loops on the modules. Next to that, there is lots of chatting, exchanging ideas, meeting new people and so on. Because only of a few meetings per year, the interaction between people is more important than running operations. It's not hard to spend a day doing this, since everybody is there with the same goal.

 

I have missed out on some of the 'big' narrow gauge model train events here, but I will attempt to attend the next one in the area.

 

So far, no electrical details have been thought of, since it's still a basic idea. I was thinking of discussing this with a T-Trak member who has the ATS system under his control. This system is simple, modular, can handle bidirectional traffic and has block detection. But that might be interesting for later, as a small setup with only a few trains can be done manually.

 

Anyway, this idea of transferring it to N Narrow, also springs from the thought that this concept is already so far gone from the usual module concepts, I might as well take it to this level.

[velotrain]

> "Anyway, this idea of transferring it to N Narrow, also springs from the thought that this concept is already so far gone from the usual module concepts, I might as well take it to this level."

 

Aaah, but what happened to, "At the moment, I'm considering setting the scale standard to actual H0e (H0n3) narrow gauge, as the level of detail can be increased, allows for more freelance modeling, and has already a more active freelance modeler base. N-gauge will also be possible, but then the image would be more inclined to a more serious and heavy-rail type of thing, which is not what I want to go for."

 

 

Actually - one of the things I like about these guys is that they're small enough so you can do multiples of them.  I'll be ordering some O9 from England in a few days.

[ToniBabelony]

True that HO is more fit for detail, but because of N gauge being the mainstay of the market, it makes it more interesting for others to step into this concept in regards to the scenic details. The concept after all is more focused on detailed scenes, rather than running trains.  I mean, it's easy to find N-scale figurines, buildings, kits, etc. and so on all over the place, but you don't see things like that easily in HO here in the shops, if at all. Even the massive TamTam nearby doesn't carry things like these all the time. Standard gauge would be okay, but narrow gauge allows for a more 'romantic' setting IMO.

 

N-gauge also allows for more scenery into a small space, as I've noticed that this module I'm making, doesn't have much room for scenery, despite being in the largest display case available (for very very little money).

[cteno4]

Charles,

 

Us ttrak has basically the same standards as Japan. The front face of the us standard is 2.75" high, with adjustable bolt legs to be able to take the module top up to 100mm above the table top. Most us clubs run around 3.5" off the table top to allow for enough room to fiddle with the leveling bolts and make up for differences in multiple table tops in the setup.

 

Jeff

[velotrain]

Thanks, Jeff - I knew they came with the adjusting bolts, but didn't realize they allowed that much adjustment (~ 1.25")

[HantuBlauLOL]

i think i know your reason for switching into 1/150 6.5mm.

 

1067mm.

[beakaboy]

Hey guys. a really interesting topic for me! I am considering the N Narrow concept. I have a small amount of Z scale track as well as a few points . A fantasy modular layout possibly based on a bush tramway appeals to me. I like also the idea of scenery dwarfing the railway. I recently acquired a DE10 by  Rokuhan which has some possibilities, but need to slow it down. I used a Z scale Marklin transformer and the start and stop is too abrupt. The bogie arrangement would hopefully create good pickup across points and with a trial run on an oval with a single point, it ran very smoothly. Some of these narrow gauge Japanese displays, dioramas,etc are really clever. My mate is in to narrow gauge 009 as well as  HO something!( I am easily confused.)I think he has more locos than rolling stock now. He has been pushing me for some time to create something. Too many projects and not enough focus creates lots of unfinished work on my workbench. Sometimes I go out in my shed and spend an hour contemplating what needs doing and then end up repairing another  loco. At least it gets it off the workbench or usually the layout ,as it has usually sat there for 6 months .

[ToniBabelony]

i think i know your reason for switching into 1/150 6.5mm.

 

1067mm.

 

Actually, in Japan there are generally speaking two schools of thought on this. Let's just call them 'schools' for now, since there aren't really standards for them here.

 

One is the (here) well known Nj gauges school, which involves running your standard 9mm gauge N-scale trains on 6.5mm track by simply regauging them with different wheelsets. This is to approach the 1,067mm gauge, which would be roughly 7.1mm in Japanese N scale (1/150).

 

The other is the N Narrow school, which retains the 9mm gauge for 1,067mm cape gauge, but uses 6,5mm gauge to simulate 762mm narrow gauge operations (Keiben (Ger. 'Feldbahn' or 'industrial narrow gauge') or Tokushu Kyōki ('special(ised) narrow gauge')).

 

This project will be focussing on the latter school of thought, but there can always be exceptions. I thought it'd be nice to develop something for the N Narrow school, since there is hardly anything around for that.

 

Hey guys. a really interesting topic for me! I am considering the N Narrow concept. I have a small amount of Z scale track as well as a few points . A fantasy modular layout possibly based on a bush tramway appeals to me. I like also the idea of scenery dwarfing the railway. I recently acquired a DE10 by  Rokuhan which has some possibilities, but need to slow it down. I used a Z scale Marklin transformer and the start and stop is too abrupt. The bogie arrangement would hopefully create good pickup across points and with a trial run on an oval with a single point, it ran very smoothly. Some of these narrow gauge Japanese displays, dioramas,etc are really clever. My mate is in to narrow gauge 009 as well as  HO something!( I am easily confused.)I think he has more locos than rolling stock now. He has been pushing me for some time to create something. Too many projects and not enough focus creates lots of unfinished work on my workbench. Sometimes I go out in my shed and spend an hour contemplating what needs doing and then end up repairing another  loco. At least it gets it off the workbench or usually the layout ,as it has usually sat there for 6 months .

 

I think using a PWM controller unit will have the trains run smoother. I also had a Märklin Mini controller and wasn't really happy with it either.

 

This project is indeed for those with little space, but still wanting to have something to build and play around with (like me). Narrow gauge is ideal for this, since a lot can be done in a small space. Scaling down from 1/87 to 1/150 only increases the possibilities in that regard.

[ToniBabelony]

Digging a bit deeper into the N Narrow and Keiben scene, I discovered that nowadays, Toma Model Works kind-of leads the way in Japan for this small franchise. Toma developed the Korokoro Power Unit, which is basicially a cell battery you roll towards to contacts to power a motor that has to be sourced from a Kato B-train power unit. In combination with their small range of 3D printed bodyshells, it looks something like this:

 

 

This is quite an interesting power unit, as there is no need to worry about dead sections (points), dirty tracks and wiring. This however limits the options for operations, since only one unit can toodle along unattended, has to run in a continuous situation. However, that shouldn't be a problem for now.

 

The main focus will probably be Rokuhan sectional track, which features an insane R45 curve (R046), as well as very tight R127 points (R022 and R023). The R45 curve looks interesting, but will probably be problematic with longer motorised rolling stock (rebuilt Z gauge stock) and coupled cars. It would thus be recommended not to use this on the main line. Here are however an official videos from Rokuhan showing the R45 curve in operation as part of narrow gauge systems (HOf) and (Nn3).

 

A next step for me personally is to start investing in actual track and create rolling stock for experimental purposes. The Akia Zj line seems tempting to start out with for rolling stock, as these trains (mainly JNR 485 Series) go for dirt cheap (and I mean insanely cheap) and can provide an excellent resource for bogies/wheel sets and power units.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Toni Babelony

[velotrain]

Toni - I'm not understanding how that Korokoro works.

 

Here's another possible power chassis you might want to consider:

 

http://www.zscalemonster.com/searails/

 

You can alternately visit Searails, but I think the customer service at ZMonster is better.

 

It's definitely pricy, but very high quality and runs well at low speeds.

 

I bought a HOn2 battery mine engine from Toma and it uses this unit.

 

You might also want to check with Yoshiya Kobayashi http://www.justmystep.justhpbs.jp/ to see what he would recommend.

[kvp]

I have some experience with rokuhan track and their turnouts are power routing electrofrog, so it's very hard to get something stuck on them. Also their R120 curve is good for most standard gauge maerklin stock. (max 3 coupled steamers though) R95 is usable with some bogie cars but S curves are a problem and 2 axle cars just hate it. You can disable the turnout power routing selectively, which helps getting power into Z shaped sidings. So imho R120/R127 seems to be the safe minimum for most Z scale rolling stock.

 

For power units, i would suggest either wiring together multiple 2 axle cars to serve as pickups or getting a small infrared remote receiver chip with a motor driver for battery operation. (Afaik you mentioned earlier that getting the free form modules to form a loop would be too hard.)

[Jcarlton]

While not Japanese, this might help.

http://www.hon30.org/

[ToniBabelony]

Toni - I'm not understanding how that Korokoro works.

 

It's a simple power unit with a frame mounted power cell. You move it either in or out of place of the contact wires to make the unit move. Here is an example movie with an 9mm gauge H0 unit:

 

 

The PowerMAXI is far too expensive for its purpose IMO and I'm sure better can be done/found on a local (Japan) level. I'm not considering importing (especially from overseas) when it comes to these kind of things. The Korokoro unit can also be rebuilt to a direct power unit via the tracks with some slight modifications.

 

I have some experience with rokuhan track and their turnouts are power routing electrofrog, so it's very hard to get something stuck on them. Also their R120 curve is good for most standard gauge maerklin stock. (max 3 coupled steamers though) R95 is usable with some bogie cars but S curves are a problem and 2 axle cars just hate it. You can disable the turnout power routing selectively, which helps getting power into Z shaped sidings. So imho R120/R127 seems to be the safe minimum for most Z scale rolling stock.

 

That sounds pretty good! Thank you for the feedback on that. That helps a lot.

 

For power units, i would suggest either wiring together multiple 2 axle cars to serve as pickups or getting a small infrared remote receiver chip with a motor driver for battery operation. (Afaik you mentioned earlier that getting the free form modules to form a loop would be too hard.)

 

That would work for a fixed rake of wagons/cars and wouldn't necessarily have the locomotive as a powered unit. However, an automated loop at either end of the line would also be convenient for continuous running, so no full loop would be required (also saving in rail length).

 

A good thing with these kind of narrow gauge feldbahn-style operations is that it hardly matters in which direction rolling stock is pointing, plus end loops are actually prototypical in these settings.

[ToniBabelony]

A little update on the first rolling stock for this project. Originally a Kujūkuri KiHa 104 from Toma Model Works with a button-cell battery powered Korokoro Power Unit, now ready for painting into a fictional livery:

 

LR44 button cell, Korokoro Power Unit and KiHa 104 bodyshell.

 

A measure to compare the tinyness of the car.

 

Korokoro Power Unit 'hybrid' rebuilt with a simple wire connecting the minus pole pickup with the isolated axle holder. Now it can run on both battery power and direct wheel pickup.

 

I have bought some Rokuhan track and am already very pleased with the quality of it! Next year, I want to get a small circular island layout going with two 'out' tracks. It can even be part of a T-Trak module come to think of it! :)

 

P.s. Yes, this was a successful investment and I'll be going for more Korokoro Power Units and probably converting them to direct wheel pickup only with high-capacity capacitors as electronic flywheels (if I can find them, as those square NEC/TOKIN ones I'm looking for have magically vanished from shops).

Edited December 2, 2015 by Toni Babelony

[ToniBabelony]

Just started building/soldering my newly acquired World Craft's Numajiri Railway GaSo 101 and found out a ventilator unit was missing:

 

 

Immediately, I sent out an email to World Craft to notify them and ask if I could order a replacement. They quickly replied with excuses and would send a replacement right away! Too bad about the missing part, but great service!

 

Here is a comparison in the size of the details with my other 'working tool'.

 

 

Amazing detail! I think I'm sold now when it comes to metal kits. This is so much fun and satisfying to do. Definitely worth the higher price.

 

Here is a comparison with the 3D printed model (Kujūkuri Railway KiHa 104) from Toma Works:

 

 

Yes, I broke the steps. Shaddap. Differences abound. Not only in look, but also in feel. Somehow I feel a combination of 3D printing and metal etching would be amazing!

[ToniBabelony]

Gave the bonnet-type unit number '601' and a coat of classic DMU orange and beige. All that is needed are a few glass sections in the windows and maybe some black washing. The drive unit needs a bit of tweaking, since it's a bit rough running through the corners (it's kind of authentic looking though). Besides that, it looks fine and runs okay. Cuteness on wheels!

 

 

I kind of feel the urge now to design wagons/coaches/trucks for it to drag along. Maybe also see if magnets can be of use with these tracks to keep non-motorised vehicles on the tracks. Adding magnets in the vehicles and adding a magnetic strip under the tracks, since the tracks have no magnetic properties. An idea copied from the Busch 6.5mm Feldbahn system.

[katoftw]

Look great.  Feel good to complete it?  On to the next kit then huh?

[ToniBabelony]

Look great.  Feel good to complete it?  On to the next kit then huh?

 

Thanks :) This 3D printed model was quite satisfying to finish. It's small, it moves well, has simple mechanics and electronics

 

World Kogei currently doesn't have an N Narrow kit in development (I asked the staff recently), so I'll have to resort to another Toma Model Works product or try my hands at a Pairhands (no pun intended) kit. Other than that, I want to develop some of my own :)

 

A little bonus for all the double (and beyond) posts. A video of the little thing running:

 

Edited December 11, 2015 by Toni Babelony

[NXCALE]

Hi. I just found this topic.

This is a great idea for a modular layout.

I know it is not the same but somehow it reminded me the attached pictures.

All the best.