113/115 Front/Face Design - What other trains have it?

[katoftw]

The gangway bolted to the front of the train is a dead giveaway that this process happens.  521, 323 series for JR West all have the same feature.  But there are many across Japan that follow suit.

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

An interesting tidbit: the JR West 207, 221, 223, 225, and 321 Series EMU have a front face configuration akin to what was pioneered by the 153 Series EMU, but it appears they were not designed to connect between trains by a gangway (the front center door is probably an emergency exit door). The 227 Series EMU that operate out of Hiroshima are designed to connect by a gangway.

It depends on the need; 207, 223, 225 and 321 series trains are equipped with centrally-located emergency doors, due to the fact that some of those trains are operated on JR Tozai Line (which runs underground)... This is somehow similar to JR East's E217 series trains, because Sobu Rapid Line and Yokosuka Line are running underground between Shinagawa (?) and Kinshicho...

[Sacto1985]

You can easily tell the JR West 227 Series EMU was built specifically to operate on longer trains connected together if you look from this picture:

 

Note the large center door, gangway and the accordion-like cover that is used when connected to another 227 trainset. 

[katoftw]

Sacto1985-  As mentioned earlier in this thread.  A gangway is a clear indication that units can be run together in a larger consist.  A Gangway consists of a inward opening door, a hood (accordion like cover as above) and a footplate (a metal flap that folds down to close gap between cabs).

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

You can easily tell the JR West 227 Series EMU was built specifically to operate on longer trains connected together if you look from this picture:

 

 

Note the large center door, gangway and the accordion-like cover that is used when connected to another 227 trainset. 

227 series trains are designed to be coupled with other trainsets to form a longer train, implied by the presence of electric coupler right under the main coupler, as well as the connecting doors, gangway covers, and footplate. Slightly (or completely?) different than its older brother (225 series)...

 

Note: with the arrival of 227 series, at least people who lived in Hiroshima would have something better than those "pre-scrapping yellow" trains (as implied by Japanese fellow's "末期色" term, which is exactly fits with the fact that all of Hiroshima and Okayama division trains being painted in Chugoku area yellow livery would be scrapped only a few years, or even a few months after being freshly overhauled by Hiroshima or Shimonoseki workshops)...

Edited November 1, 2015 by SuRoNeFu 25-501

[200系]

It's been a while since I posted anything on this forum, and I have been considering posting a reply in this thread for some time, but in the end decided to go ahead anyway.

I hope my post can still add something worthwhile to this thread.

 

serotta1972,

 

Like earlier posters already pointed out it was the front design of the 153系 which provided the genesis for the majority of 'near shaped' local and ordinary express trains of the 'new performance era'. Though the 153系 was not the only design of that period to use the low cab style, there where the ordinary express types of the 155系/159系(based on the 153系) as well as both the 401系 (DC/20 KV 50Hz) and the 421系 (DC/20 KV 60Hz) local types introduced in 1961 which originally had low cabs as well. The 153系 seems to also have been the first to switch to a high cab structure for new built cars in late 1961, with the 401系/421系 following in early 1962 essentially providing the template for both the suburban type express style (153系 ->165系) and suburban type local style (401系/421系->415系).

The high cab front design later became the standard for all suburban type series of the 'new performance era', until the introduction of the 211系 in 1985 (barring some exceptions like the 117系 and 185系). The same features where re-used for the DC only 111系 introduced in 1962 which would be the genesis for the 113系 and later the 115系.

 

 

So far I'm aware of the following:

113, 115, 165, 169, 415, 457, 475, 313 is similar but modern.

 

For a full list of EMU using the same or a similar design, this should be it as far as I know:

 

New Built (/ denote related series, I.e. the 167系 uses a different designator (used for school charters) but can still be classified as part of the larger 165系) :

 

-DC ordinary express: 153系, 155系/159系, 165系/167系/169系

-AC/DC ordinary express: 451系/453系/455系/457系/471系/473系/475系

-DC 'near shaped' local (suburban): 111系/113系, 115系

-AC/DC 'near shaped' local (suburban): 401系/403系, 415系, 417系, 421系/423系

-AC  'near shaped' local (suburban): 711系, 713系

 

Re-bodied cars using same style:

 

- KuHa66形 (former 72系 KuHa79形 cars re-bodied with a 113系 style car body in 1974. Retaining the traction installation, trucks and pantograph(s) of the 72系. Powered cars using the same body style where placed in the MoHa62形 class, both new built 72系 cars and remodeled 63系 cars where used. In total twelve cars where remodeled (6 Kuha and 6 MoHa cars) forming three 4 car formations.) 

- 413系/717系 

 

 

 

Other styles are the minimalist front of the 101/103 series (first seen before on some 42 series rebuilds and on the eh10)

 

I assume you are referring to the KuHa47形100番台 rebuilts of 42系 KuHa58形 cars? If so you'd be incorrect.

As far as I'm aware, it was the 63系 (referred to as MoHa63形 before the new 1959 vehicle format regulations came into effect) that  introduced the utilitarian front design at the 'kokutetsu' (state owned railways, officially Kokuyū Tetsudō, the predecessor to the later national railways more commonly referred to by the initials of the English name, J.N.R. outside Japan) network in 1944. In fact the 63系 very first Japanese EMU (at least as far as the government railway system is concerned) that can be convincingly classified as a true commuter EMU as opposed to mixed usage (among other it introduced the usage of 4 door per side, as opposed to the 3 doors or even 2 doors per side used before on earlier 20m class cars, though there had been a few cars modified in the early 40's (both 17m and 20m classes) the 63系 was the first to introduce the concept on a fleet wide basis. they still used leaf style doors though).

Some of the frontal features that would later be associated with the 101系, and more importantly, in slightly altered form in the (low cab) 103系 cars where actually introduced by new built (as opposed to the modified 63系 cars also part of the same series) 72系/73系 KuHa79形 cars. While the original batches of 72系/73系 end cars (both new built (KuHa79形) and converted 63系 cars (KuMoHa73形 and Kuha79形)) still used the 63系 style front, with the 1953 order batch, two end cars (KuHa79-350 and KuHa79-352) with a modified front where delivered. As opposed to the flat front of the 63系, the three paneled cab windows where placed at a 5 degree angle with the individual window panels placed into H shaped rubber seals. Tests with those two cars proved to be successful, and the 1954 order included a similar style, but with the angle of the windscreen changed from 5 to 10 degrees, a feature later maintained by the 101系 (originally the MoHa90形) and in slightly modified form in the 103系.

The last 9 cars from the 1956 order batch introduced some of the final styling cues for the 101系. The KuHa79形920番台, also known as the 'all metal' cars, introduced the final evolution of the 63系/72系 concept, with the introduction integrated train and route designations, a slightly smoothed front end , two piece paneled doors, two piece window sash, fluorescent lighting in the passenger compartment ,new unpowered trucks and a car body based on the then new 10系 passenger cars. This style was used for the final two production batches of the 73系 (1957~1958).

The 101系 saw a further evolution of the style introduced by the 79形920番台, as we are focusing on the front design though I'll focus on the changes there though. While the windscreen on later KuHa79形 cars consisted of three separately placed window panels, the 101系 used three larger panels encased in a steel frame separated by two thin pillars in the center, the frame itself which is mounted in the cab carbody structure. With the introduction of the 103系 in 1963 the cab windows where slightly modified, the cab windows receding slightly more into the cab structure and the lower portion of the windshield was raised a bit (thus creating a slightly lower window structure). This style was kept until the 1974 production batch when the high cab style was introduced and the lower section of the windscreen was raised even further (the upper portion slightly, while the lower portion was raised significantly giving a rather narrow look to the front end) thus creating the characteristic high-cab style of the late production 103系 batches. This style was used from 1974 till the end of 103系 production in 1984 (with the obvious exception of the 103系1500番台 built for Fukuoka subway services etc.).

 

Anyway, as I've gone off-topic for a bit, as the subject was of course the 'near shaped' front design as opposed to the 'commuter design'. But my point still stands, the  KuHa47形100番台 cars where modified from 1953, while a similar front had been in use since 1944 with the 63系 and the 10 degree sloped windshield design was actually introduced by the 72系/73系 KuHa79形35X番台 cars not the EH10形. Though, if you have any evidence to the contrary, I'll happily amend my opinion.

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

Your reply is much more than worth for enhancing my knowledge! Thanks for your great reply, it is really informative and very good :happy3:

 

The 153系 seems to also have been the first to switch to a high cab structure for new built cars in late 1961, with the 401系/421系 following in early 1962 essentially providing the template for both the suburban type express style (153系 ->165系) and suburban type local style (401系/421系->415系).

The high cab front design later became the standard for all suburban type series of the 'new performance era', until the introduction of the 211系 in 1985 (barring some exceptions like the 117系 and 185系). The same features where re-used for the DC only 111系 introduced in 1962 which would be the genesis for the 113系 and later the 115系.

 

JNR introduced the high cab front design due to the need for increasing the amount of protection area around the driver cab, which was required because at that time there were many accidents at grade crossings shortly after the end of Pacific War until the early 1960s

 

Slightly out-of-topic: 401 series and 421 series were not only the ones that reclassified as part of 415 series, but also 403 and 423 series, which are the improved version of 401 and 421 series EMU, with the traction motor's power output is increased from 100kW (MT46-type traction motor) to 120kW (MT54-type traction motor).

Edited November 5, 2015 by SuRoNeFu 25-501

[200系]

SuRoNeFu, and everyone else, thanks for the support, it's always appreciated. :)

 

 

 

JNR introduced the high cab front design due to the need for increasing the amount of protection area around the driver cab, which was required because at that time there were many accidents at grade crossings shortly after the end of Pacific War until the early 1960s 

 

Thanks for the enthusiasm and extra information, but I was already well aware of this before this post (you even provided the same information in this thread before), the same applies to other low to high cab modifications like for instance the 103系 (though for the 103系 it was only changed from the 1974 production batches onward) though improved viability also played a role in the change from a low cab structure to a high cab (also unlike the 153系/155系, 401系/421系, there have been some mixed low/high cab formations for the 103系, though those where rare).

Still I appreciate the information.

 

-Sander 

[serotta1972]

For a full list of EMU using the same or a similar design, this should be it as far as I know:

 

New Built (/ denote related series, I.e. the 167系 uses a different designator (used for school charters) but can still be classified as part of the larger 165系) :

 

-DC ordinary express: 153系, 155系/159系, 165系/167系/169系

-AC/DC ordinary express: 451系/453系/455系/457系/471系/473系/475系

-DC 'near shaped' local (suburban): 111系/113系, 115系

-AC/DC 'near shaped' local (suburban): 401系/403系, 415系, 417系, 421系/423系

-AC  'near shaped' local (suburban): 711系, 713系

 

Thank you Mr. 200 (sorry I don't know how to do the Japanese Characters) for your comprehensive response and the list of trains and to everyone else as well that contributed their knowledge of these particular trains.  Gaining so much information and history of these trains and the more I know about them, the more I like them.  I am now looking for all these trains that are available in models.  I will create another post for that.

 

-Junior

[katoftw]

all you gotta do is type any of those series into a comprehensive search engine like the one from hobby search, and you'll have your list.

[serotta1972]

I did and thank goodness a lot of them are out of stock. There are some on Ebay but no thank you! I don't like them that much.

[katoftw]

I have been toying with buying a 415-1000 to run with my Kagoshima based DMUs.

[bikkuri bahn]

Funny, these types are pretty common in HO.  Perhaps the customer base is different.

[serotta1972]

Katoftw, Im about to order the 415 adding to my Kyushu roster. These types are very common as I already acquired 9 sets of different models in the past year. It's the Kato 153's that are out of stock, Im sure I'll find them if I keep digging and utilize all the various online resources.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

It is sometimes wiser to wait a year or two for a re-release.  I am sure 153系 will be released again in the future.  It is a popular model.  If it is out of stock in most stores, chances are that it will be full price with any store still holding stock.  Your alternative is to risk a second hand model, which I sometimes do myself.  If you wait, you can get it on pre-order which is usually a better price than than the normal street price.

[serotta1972]

Hello Ochanomizu,  available 153's are more than full price - I will wait patiently as there are many other trains I like that are currently available that can be had at a discount.  I've tried the second hand route and have had mixed experiences, mostly not good and as you said a gamble especially from my end as I buy everything online instead of seeing the trains first hand at a hobby shop.  

[katoftw]

amiami has a cheap 115 set currently:- http://www.amiami.com/top/detail/detail?gcode=RAIL-18995&page=top%2Fsearch%2Flist%3Fs_cate2%3D9604%24s_saleitem%3D1%24pagemax%3D40%24getcnt%3D0%24pagecnt%3D1

[serotta1972]

That is cheap but already got the Tomix counterpart.  Thanks for looking out.  

[marknewton]

Funny, these types are pretty common in HO.  Perhaps the customer base is different.

I've got a little fleet of these cars from Tomix, Kato and Dentetsu Kobo, all in the lovely Shonan colours. All lovely models, too.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[Welshbloke]

Someone mentioned the 457 Series earlier, and I'm now eyeballing the Kato models as my next build-a-train project. However, I wouldn't mind some information about them if anyone has any?

 

While this is probably highly unrealistic I'm likely to end up with a seven car formation, the basic and add-on three car sets with a SaHaShi 455 somewhere in the middle. Might add a SaRo 455 if I can find one with a green band for sensible money. From what I can work out they seem to be a dual voltage version of a 165 Series?

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

While this is probably highly unrealistic I'm likely to end up with a seven car formation, the basic and add-on three car sets with a SaHaShi 455 somewhere in the middle. Might add a SaRo 455 if I can find one with a green band for sensible money. From what I can work out they seem to be a dual voltage version of a 165 Series?

457 series trains (and its similarly designed trains like 451 series, 453 series, 455 series, etc) are essentially dual current version of 165 series, albeit with some changes on its traction components to fit with the AC-DC operations (motor generator and compressor are placed on trailer cars, because pantograph-equipped motor cars stores transformers and other equipments that convert AC to DC). But indeed, KuHa 455 cars that grouped in -300 to -600 subseries groups are really former 165 series cars (though KuHa 455-601 to 605 were converted from SaRo 455, instead of KuHa 165, KuMoHa 165, SaHa 165 or SaRo 165 cars)

[Welshbloke]

Thanks for that, I was a bit surprised to see that they only have one pantograph. Usually European multi-voltage designs have more than one, presumably as that makes for simpler wiring.

 

I wondered where all the SaRo 165s had gone, given that all the recent videos I can find show plain three or six car sets with no intermediate trailers.

 

Kato have a handful of diagrams for 457 Series formations, but I don't fancy the longest one as it involves buying three dummy sets. Looking at pricing and availability I think I must be almost out of time to get one of these together, I can find a powered set which I'll order in a couple of weeks and the same seller has a dummy set, unfortunately I can't afford to order both at once so I'll just get the powered one for now. While a four car set with a SaHaShi would be very unlikely it's technically feasible, so that'll do for me.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Welshbloke

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

I was a bit surprised to see that they only have one pantograph. Usually European multi-voltage designs have more than one, presumably as that makes for simpler wiring.

In JNR days, multi current EMUs that equipped with one pantograph are limited to commuter, suburban and express type. Limited express EMUs like 485 and 583 series, however, carries two pantograph. This happens because when the train is running under 1.5kV DC overhead line, the train had to raise both pantographs on the same time (but only one pantograph would be raised when running under AC overhead line). But with the advancing technologies, modern-generation AC-DC limited express EMUs are now carrying only one pantograph on its motor car, just like the commuter, suburban, and express ones.

 

 

I wondered where all the SaRo 165s had gone, given that all the recent videos I can find show plain three or six car sets with no intermediate trailers.

SaRo 165 cars were retired before the privatization, or even modified into KuHa 455 cars (which the modified cars are part of -300 to -600 groups), so it seems that all of the video you've watched are showing trains that has been removed from express services (in other word: relegated to local services).

[Welshbloke]

As with all things on Youtube, there's more footage of recent events than older stuff. Video cameras used to be expensive, heavy and complicated, and many people wouldn't think to digitise and upload old train videos.

 

I'm guessing the dual pantographs were due to the current draw and consequent risk of melting something? It seems to have been a common thing with DC electrification the world over.

[SuRoNeFu 25-501]

I'm guessing the dual pantographs were due to the current draw and consequent risk of melting something? It seems to have been a common thing with DC electrification the world over.

It seems that there are several factors for this problem, but the main factor would be this one...

Edited November 24, 2015 by SuRoNeFu 25-501