High speed rail in Australia

[Oz_Paul]

We continue to talk about it.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Oz_Paul

[katoftw]

Spin spin and more spin.

 

I really don't think Australia needs it.  Sure it would be great.  But they mention tourism boosting etc for example.  If you want to do Sydney to Melbourne in the quickest time.  The route will have no tourism unless you count Canberra as a tourist attraction.  Batemans Bay, Bega, Lakes entrance would have to be the route for tourism.  But that would add a 30-45min travel time and cause an increase in tunnels in southern NSW.  A lot of the positives they throw up in the air just aren't realistic.

 

We don't have the rail network to support it.  Sure they'll have stops at Canberra and Albury.  But there is nil public transport options available to tourists when they exit the station.  Hence making the tourism side of things a mute point.

 

Between Sydney and Brisbane there is a lot of opportunities for Tourism.  But that is stage 2, still cannot even get stage 1 off the ground.

Edited October 14, 2015 by katoftw

[kvp]

This plan is proposing high speed rail as an alternative to air travel and even going so far to connect the two existing airports with the trains. It's true that this would take care of public transport connections as train travellers would have nearly the same options as air travellers. The question is cost versus projected income. Are there enough air travellers between the two cities to make a high speed line profitable, considering the higher travel time, higher build and maintenance costs, but lower ticket prices?

 

For tourisms, going between the two cities directly by air or sea seems more realistic, especially the sea route, which is relatively cheap, could be as fast as the current train and looks better from a tourist standpoint.

 

The usual alternative would be high speed rail on conventional tracks. The distance by road is 963 km and with a 110 km/h speed, you get 9 hours of travel time. The train goes around 11 hours (90 km/h, the same as a bus). Legacy track high speed rail can go at around 250 km/h, which is around 4 hours and could be comparable with flying as the trains are downtown to downtown and there is virtually no check in time. This could be done by upgrading the current tracks (double or quad tracking, welded rails, etc.), which as a side effect speeds up commuter and freight traffic.

[railsquid]

For tourisms, going between the two cities directly by air or sea seems more realistic, especially the sea route, which is relatively cheap, could be as fast as the current train and looks better from a tourist standpoint.

 

Half-a-day in a hydrofoil? Sounds fun...

[kvp]

As long as it has a shielded sun deck and a cafe/bar/restaurant. The longest route i took on one was a 6 hour ride on a soviet built comet on the black sea. Although for turists, a slower but bigger ship would be better.

 

For business travellers a classic loco hauled hst set would be better. The same upgraded tracks could also be used by local commuter sets. (for the really long distsnce trains, a hybrid diesel-ovearhead electric locomotive could be used which operates on diesel across barren areas, but switches to the catenary at the edge of the commuter areas)

[Das Steinkopf]

I get a bit tired with this debate whether it be in the media or online in groups such as Railpages or Trains Down Under, the simple facts are there is just not the population density to support it, also the decline in a lot of regional cities due to manufacturing and other industries moving to the capital cities. There needs to be more emphasis on building up the regional cities with new business opportunities and industries that create employment and give people the incentive to move to those places, to facilitate this there needs to be major investment in the rail freight sector in particular regional freight hubs and hi speed freight.

 

The biggest impediment to this is the trucking industry and the toll road operators, these industry groups have for too long dictated freight transport policy to the detriment of the railways, you only have to look at the Abbott governments transport policy with it's tired mantra of building the roads of the 21st Century. The vast bulk of freight moved along the Eastern seaboard is via road with massive distribution centres established along the routes of the toll ways, most of these distribution centres are nowhere near any railway lines that have freight facilities, examples such as this can be seen in Arndell Park and Huntingwood in Western Sydney near the M4 and M7 Motorways, the closest railfreight terminal is Enfield about 30kms away. Probably the most pathetic example of the lack of investment in rail infrastructure in Australia is the Sydney to Brisbane route along the coast, the vast bulk of that supposed mainline is single track working, that is an insult when you consider that it is the main route connecting two of the largest cities in Australia, especially in this era.

Edited October 15, 2015 by Das Steinkopf

[E6系]

Hello,

 

I have read the phase 2 report completed in 2013.  40Mb of data ...

 

I am surprised that stations along the route, such as Southern Highlands, are located outside of town and not integrated with local services.

 

The proposition to tunnel 65km through much of Sydney adds an unnecessary cost.  The public needs to submit to either using existing local tracks in built up areas or constructing new rail overhead, as was done in Japan.  Bangkok did the same for local services.

 

The report indicates that tourism is not expected to play a major role.

 

Based on the numbers my guess is that local labour rates are too high and the use of migrant workers is not possible for some reason.

 

A better solution might be to install a shorter service of several hundred kilometres connecting some of the satellite cities around Sydney and do the same in Melbourne.  Let the connection of both cities be stage 2 in 10 years or so.

 

That is my opinion.

[Kb4iuj]

The cost of building a high speed rail transit system on dedicated tracks for moving only people is pricy. But, once it's completed it'll serve as a job creatator.As compared to the airline industry which continues to out source maintenance jobs, etc to lower costs. If the gov't want to grow a city or areas. Well, multiple passenger train service is essential... Where an airplane can only hold so many people, trains typically can easily add another car on to it to exceed capacity.

 

Why the Japanese haven't added cars to some of those packed in subway cars is a mystery to me.

[kvp]

 

Why the Japanese haven't added cars to some of those packed in subway cars is a mystery to me.

The answer is usually line capacity. Each line has a platform and block length limit. This limits the length and maximal frequency of the trains without changing the length of the platforms (this usually requires tunneling for subways) and the blocks (this requires resignalling the line if there is enough distance between two stops. So when a line reaches maximal train lengths and maximal train frequency, then you can't do much without a complete rebuild. This has been done on many lines, including the yamanote in the past decades (several times). The result is 16 car trains on some lines, which is very near the maximal tolerable walking distance for passengers on platforms. With trains arriving every minute, the only way to increase capacity is to build a parallel line. This has also happened in Japan, for example the new Ueno-Tokyo conneting line is built exactly for this purpose, but several new subways were built for this reason. (many of them were originally surface running streetcar lines)

[Nick_Burman]

They could start by adding a daytime XPT...would do wonders for the railway's popularity.

 

 

Cheers NB

[westfalen]

They could start by adding a daytime XPT...would do wonders for the railway's popularity.

 

 

Cheers NB

It would be better than spending the night in one but the 5.55am to 8.12pm trip from Brisbane to Sydney is not much better, the old Brisbane Ltd Exp was a much better overnight trip with proper sleepers and a real dining car.. After my last train trip from Brisbane to Melbourne and back a few years ago I decided that if I ever did it again I would fly, and I'm a hardcore railfan who gets a free pass.  Part of our problem in this country is that the railways have done so much to discourage long distance train travel that the public no longer see trains as a travel option.

[Das Steinkopf]

They could start by adding a daytime XPT...would do wonders for the railway's popularity.

 

 

Cheers NB

 

The sad fact is that XPT is pretty much stuffed, they have been in service for over 30 years and are in desperate need of replacement. There were plans mooted about 15 years ago to replace them, but just like everything else it got put on the backburner. The problem is that suburban sevices always take precedent due to the volume of people they move, after that comes interurbans and as always last on the list is country or long distance trains.

[bikkuri bahn]

Nothing is certain except death and taxes and...perennial HSR proposals that remain proposals...

[Sacto1985]

The only viable route would be Sydney to Melbourne via Canberra. A huge problem is that it would require a good amount of tunneling, and given the Japanese experience with the cost and time to build long tunnels....

[Nick_Burman]

The only viable route would be Sydney to Melbourne via Canberra. A huge problem is that it would require a good amount of tunneling, and given the Japanese experience with the cost and time to build long tunnels....

 

Is the area seismic or geologically active (moving plates, rifts, etc...)? Because if it isn't, tunneling is a pretty straightforward task.

 

 

Cheers NB

[katoftw]

IF the line went Wollongong-Canberra-Wagga Wagga-Albury then they would eliminate most requirements for tunnels.  Would only add 20-30km to the length of the line.  Which when doing 200kph isn't gonna cause huge issues time wise.  Yes this would be a giant S shape.  But also goes through the most populated areas.

 

The line really need to go through some of the major regional centers to be properly useful.  People wont drive 150-200km to catch a train.  Otherwise they'd just drive the whole distance instead.

 

Around Bennalla/Winton is a huge raceway.  And a couple of time per year the town bulges are the seams with the visitors for the weekend.  A lot of people already use the train do go from Sydney to Bathurst when our once a year big race is on.

[railsquid]

Is the area seismic or geologically active (moving plates, rifts, etc...)? Because if it isn't, tunneling is a pretty straightforward task.

 

I guess sacto1985 was referring to the Seikan Tunnel, which did indeed take a while to build... being under the sea as it is... The heavily-tunnelled Shinkansen routes don't seem to have taken an inordinate amount of time to build.

[Oz_Paul]

In a similar vein.

 

Movement of mineral resources is a staple for railways here too.

 

http://elite-league.com/social-post/post-113017

 

So is the love of automobiles and hence lots of parallels in the arguments for and against high speed railway.

[Sacto1985]

I guess sacto1985 was referring to the Seikan Tunnel, which did indeed take a while to build... being under the sea as it is... The heavily-tunnelled Shinkansen routes don't seem to have taken an inordinate amount of time to build.

 

If I remember correctly, the Tohoku Shinkansen took a LONG time to build from Morioka to Shin-Aomori Stations because they had to build two 25+ km long tunnels, the Iwate-Ichinohe Tunnel south of Hachinohe and the Hakkōda Tunnel north of Hachinohe. (If I remember correctly, the original line from Omiya to Morioka opened in 1982, but the current terminus at Shin-Aomori didn't open until 2010.) And the Hokuriku Shinkansen needed to build several long tunnels between Nagano and Itoigawa Stations, hence the reason why the line extension from Nagano to Kanazawa took 18 years to build.

 

katoftw's line running suggestion is probably the best, since it will allow stopping at the most populated cities along the way, It'll probably need a train line capable of traveling between 260 to 320 km/h to make it viable as an alternative to the 50+ daily "shuttle" flights between Sydney and Melbourne on Qantas, Virgin Australia, Tigerair and Jetstar.

[katoftw]

 to make it viable as an alternative to the 50+ daily "shuttle" flights between Sydney and Melbourne on Qantas, Virgin Australia, Tigerair and Jetstar.

I think this is also part of the issue of people not accepting of the idea of a train.  I see a lot of comments and they all are concerntrating on only SYD-MEL.

 

The train itself isn't just about those two end terminus locations.  Everyone has forgotten about stops in between.  Wollongong to Melbourne = est 2h45m on the train.  Or 45mins to airport, 30 mins boarding, 60mins flight, 30mins deboarding, 30min travel from airport, total 3h15m.

Edited October 18, 2015 by katoftw

[westfalen]

I think this is also part of the issue of people not accepting of the idea of a train.  I see a lot of comments and they all are concerntrating on only SYD-MEL.

 

The train itself isn't just about those two end terminus locations.  Everyone has forgotten about stops in between.  Wollongong to Melbourne = est 2h45m on the train.  Or 45mins to airport, 30 mins boarding, 60mins flight, 30mins deboarding, 30min travel from airport, total 3h15m.

Good point.  How many Japanese travel the full distance from Tokyo to Hakata?  Then on the other hand Wollongong, Wagga Wagga or Albury aren't exactly Nagoya, Kyoto or Hiroshima either.

[Sacto1985]

Good point.  How many Japanese travel the full distance from Tokyo to Hakata?  Then on the other hand Wollongong, Wagga Wagga or Albury aren't exactly Nagoya, Kyoto or Hiroshima either.

 

That's why both JAL and ANA concentrate the biggest domestic route planes on the Tokyo Haneda (HND) to Fukuoka (FUK) route--even with the Nozomi train, a one-way trip takes around five hours and costs about ¥23,000 yen. You can get advance purchase tickets on multiple airlines on this route for vastly lower prices.

 

(By the way, back before the arrival of the 300 Series trainset, a one-way trip from Tokyo to Hakata on the Hikari train--yes, the Hikari train ran that far from 1975 to the early 1990's!--took around seven hours for a one-way trip. Small wonder why JNR operated restaurant cars on the 100 Series trainsets, which had a top speed not much higher than the 0 Series trainsets.)

 

I think if Australia does develop a high-speed rail system, we'll have the following lines:

 

1. Sydney to Melbourne via Canberra

2. Melbourne to Adelaide

[katoftw]

I think if Australia does develop a high-speed rail system, we'll have the following lines:

 

2. Melbourne to Adelaide

How do you figure that?

[westfalen]

I'd consider Sydney to Brisbane before Melbourne to Adelaide.  Brisbane has a higher population than Adelaide even before you factor in the greater south east Queensland area with the tourist hot spots of the Gold and Sunshine Coasts.

 

The current Melbourne to Adelaide service consists of 'The Overland' which operator Great Southern Railway has reduced over the years they have operated it from a daily overnight train with so many cars it barely fit on the longest platforms at Adelaide and Spencer St stations to a five or six car day train that only runs twice a week.  At least Brisbane has a daily service to Sydney even if it arrives at departs ay such an ungodly hour that it's surprising anyone still uses it.

 

I think our rail passenger service is too far gone to consider high speed rail, in other countries where it was introduced it was mainly to relieve pressure on existing 'classic' railways and it was just a matter of the public moving from one train to another.  In Australia high speed rail would have to win over it's passengers from scratch by getting them out of the airline mentality.

[E6系]

Hello,

 

I note that the SYD-MEL route does not go through the nation's capital, Canberra.  Rather, Canberra will be on a spur.  I presume then that some services would bypass Canberra altogether, which appears strange to me.