Traction Tyres - friend or foe ?

[VentureForth]

Argh. I'm the worst model railroader ever.  I just want to play with my trains!

 

NeverStall hasn't improved anything, LaBelle 108 is all over my tracks, making them slick as snot, and while talking about snot, I got my Bullfrog Snot and it hasn't made a bit of difference.  Grrrrr

[EdF]

Would grease cutting detergent clear the oil?

[gavino200]

8 hours ago, VentureForth said:

Argh. I'm the worst model railroader ever.  I just want to play with my trains!

 

NeverStall hasn't improved anything, LaBelle 108 is all over my tracks, making them slick as snot, and while talking about snot, I got my Bullfrog Snot and it hasn't made a bit of difference.  Grrrrr

 

Is your track glued down, or ballasted? If not. you may want to consider just taking it all up and washing it with warm water and soap. Then drying it and replacing it. Sort of a 'nuclear option' if all else fails. 

 

[chadbag]

I have the HobbyTrain H23563, a track maintenance vehicle with motorized trailer

 

https://www.lemkecollection.de/de/Uebersicht/Spur-N/Robel-TM-235-BLS-mit-Stromabn.-motorisiert-Ep.VI

 

There are no traction tires and the thing starts slipping with even a small swell in the track (like table top track with a power cable run under it).  On my track it go to the point it was just spinning its wheels and not going anywhere when it got to where some wires run under the track.  No other train blinks an eye.   Is this a candidate for the bullfrog snot stuff?

 

 

[Martijn Meerts]

I have a small jar of bullfrog snot, but I have to say, I've never actually tried using it. What it definitely does do though, is cause so much friction between the lid and jar, that it's always quite an adventure getting the thing open.

 

Some things to keep in mind, is that a lot of the popular track cleaning solutions are actually oils, which obviously doesn't help with grip. It also means that the track will just attract dust even faster. Cleaning with alcohol, and then with a dry cloth is much better. I have a couple of small MDF blocks that I wrap some cloth around. 1 of them has cloth dipped in alcohol, the other is just dry, and I go over the track with them. It's actually really fast to clean the track that way.

 

Kato's E6 doesn't have traction tires either, but it doesn't have any problem going up my helix. Granted, the helix isn't very steep, but still, no issues, even at really slow speeds.

 

[railsquid]

What's the gradient of your helix?

[Martijn Meerts]

If I remember right, it's just a tad below 2.5% on the inner / steepest curve.

[chadbag]

With my Tm235 (HobbyTrain H23563) I think the problem is there is not much weight on it.   The trailer is the motorized driven vehicle and is quite small.   I have not noticed any others (and I think a few don't have traction tires) with issues, but they have a lot more weight (and more wheels on the track -- this one only has 4).   The rises in the track that is struggles with are almost imperceptible.

 

[cteno4]

Yeah that’s the problem with the 2 axle Kato pocket train mechanism as well, they need weight as only 4 pickup points and little weight. With only 4 wheels they can’t do a traction tire or you are down to little pickup. Is there any room in there to stick some weight? If nooks and crannies you could do the tungsten poweder or bbs and Pva glue.

 

more wheels does not change the traction as the overall friction force is independent of the surface area applied (ie number of wheels), only more weight can add more frictional force to allow more traction or changing the coefficient of friction by adding a traction tire.

 

i looked at that model, was just a bit too euro priced for me and I got a similar shell off shapeways to try...

 

jeff

[chadbag]

23 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Yeah that’s the problem with the 2 axle Kato pocket train mechanism as well, they need weight as only 4 pickup points and little weight. With only 4 wheels they can’t do a traction tire or you are down to little pickup. Is there any room in there to stick some weight? If nooks and crannies you could do the tungsten poweder or bbs and Pva glue.

 

more wheels does not change the traction as the overall friction force is independent of the surface area applied (ie number of wheels), only more weight can add more frictional force to allow more traction or changing the coefficient of friction by adding a traction tire.

 

i looked at that model, was just a bit too euro priced for me and I got a similar shell off shapeways to try...

 

 

 

Thanks.  I can problem stick some weight in the cover of the motorized trailer.   I'll try that.  I need to check but there is wiring between the main unit and the motor trailer (and no lights that I could see working under DC or DCC -- need to actually investigate) so they may do power pickup on the front as well.  Will check it out.

 

Looking at the current price, I paid a lot less (new from dealer in Germany) who was doing a "close out" type price on it.  Still "euro priced" but about the same as a good priced Greenmax track maintenance vehicle.  I wouldn't have gotten it at the "normal" Euro price.

 

 

[cteno4]

I want to say is was like 219€ when released, correct? Good you got it on close out! I was tempted but not as knowledgeable on where to look for a good deal with euro dealers so passed. I have a very similar shell from shapeways to power and try. I like the look of the hobbytrain one though. I have a sick mow habit...

 

You can get tungsten tape strips, putty, bbs, and poweder at sports stores. Folks have had lead and iron bbs react badly with glues with time. Tungsten is about as dense as you can get as well. Really hard to cut well. The putty and tape have a binder in them so not as dense but maliable.

 

jeff

[chadbag]

4 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

I want to say is was like 219€ when released, correct? Good you got it on close out! I was tempted but not as knowledgeable on where to look for a good deal with euro dealers so passed. I have a very similar shell from shapeways to power and try. I like the look of the hobbytrain one though. I have a sick mow habit...

 

You can get tungsten tape strips, putty, bbs, and poweder at sports stores. Folks have had lead and iron bbs react badly with glues with time. Tungsten is about as dense as you can get as well. Really hard to cut well. The putty and tape have a binder in them so not as dense but maliable.

 

jeff

 

 

I paid 109.xx Euro (without VAT).    Right now the MSRP is 189,90 Euro (with VAT) and right now Modellbahn Lippe has it for 143.62 Euro (without VAT -- about 170.xx with VAT).  (I did not get it from Modellbahn Lippe but from Modell Bahn Kramm, who was the one who had it on sale but no longer lists it)

 

I'll find some Tungsten shot or something.  I've used lead BBs (sinkers) with CA glue and had no problem over time (years) so will use that as a backup.

 

Thanks!

 

[chadbag]

Just FYI.  The HobbyTrain unit has 8 wheel pickup as the 4 wheels in the front main unit (non motorized) also pickup power and transfer to the motorized trailer.

[cteno4]

Oh cool. What is the electrical connection? 

 

Unfortunately the bullfrog snot needs a traction tire groove really i think. Not sure it would work on a regular wheel face. Next club meeting I need to get a bit of snot from the member that has a bottle to play with. I even remembered to take a little micro test tube to get a sample to the last meeting and he had it there in front of me and the bright shinny objects in the room did their usual...

 

I guess you could replace the wheel with a Kato wheel that has a traction slot but that woild most likely require buying a kato power bogie that has the same sized wheels and hopefully the same sized axles. I don’t know if any of the wheel companies out there sell traction wheels or not. 

 

Jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

Bullfrog snot can be applied to any wheel, but obviously it increases the diameter of the wheel slightly. It does hold better on a wheel that has a groove of course.

 

[cteno4]

I was thinking that it may cause issues with a truck with one set of wheels being larger than the other, but not an issue in this case with the 2 axle unit!

 

it should stick to the wheels. Apparently once applied is sort of sucks down as it dries and forms a more even ring, sort of like using leveling cement.

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

The bullfrog snot 'tires' are a fraction of a millimeter when applied correct, so it shouldn't have much of a negative impact, but you do need to make sure to apply it on both wheels on the same axle in that case. 1 of the selling points when I bought some of it, was that it could be applied to any wheel, because it was mostly meant for locomotives that had no traction tires in the first place.

 

Applying it takes some practice though, not enough and it'll tear while it hardens, too much and you get non-uniform traction tires that make the train wobble.

[cteno4]

Cool I’d only heard folks replacing their traction tire with it on notched wheels. I remeber folks giving a trick to try to get it to level out and run smooth.

 

its been something I’ve wanted to play with as I know replacing a traction tire will be an issue someday on one you can’t easily get a replacement for but none in that state now so little pressure to get around to it.

 

what trains have you used it on?

 

jeff

[gavino200]

7 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

The bullfrog snot 'tires' are a fraction of a millimeter when applied correct, so it shouldn't have much of a negative impact, but you do need to make sure to apply it on both wheels on the same axle in that case. 1 of the selling points when I bought some of it, was that it could be applied to any wheel, because it was mostly meant for locomotives that had no traction tires in the first place.

 

Applying it takes some practice though, not enough and it'll tear while it hardens, too much and you get non-uniform traction tires that make the train wobble.

 

Martijn, is there any chance you could give a short description of the application process?

[Martijn Meerts]

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

Martijn, is there any chance you could give a short description of the application process?

 

I haven't actually tried it myself, but basically you put the loco upside down in a cradle or something, hook it up to a power supply so you can get the wheels turning at slow-ish speed. And then you basically just use a toothpick to apply a little bit of the snot until it covers the wheel. Leave it running for some time to cure the snot until it starts becoming somewhat translucent, and then put it aside for the night.

 

I'm sure there's a bunch of videos of it. There's this one, which shows the process, but in my opinion he goes a little overboard with the snot. However, he does have a before and after, and before it can't pull even 1 car up a slope, while after it's pulling a ton of cars.

 

 

I actually have no idea where my jar of snot is, I have so much stuff to go through, but I'm not really up to any serious train stuff for now.

 

 

[chadbag]

On 3/7/2019 at 1:51 PM, cteno4 said:

Oh cool. What is the electrical connection? 

 

Notice in the main vehicle the brass strips that rub on the wheels and then connect with that little PCB underneath and wires come from the PCB and go back to the motorized trailer.

 

 

[Jimbo]

interesting     ive lost 3 rubbers in the past month, 2 different engines,,

[cteno4]

On 3/8/2019 at 2:35 PM, Martijn Meerts said:

actually have no idea where my jar of snot is

 Snot here

 

jeff

[Jimbo]

lets make it another engine, less then a hour run time on  it, lost both traction tires,,,,?????   I have checked the track,,,, its not bad, just a couple of spots   Im at a loss

[chadbag]

11 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

lets make it another engine, less then a hour run time on  it, lost both traction tires,,,,?????   I have checked the track,,,, its not bad, just a couple of spots   Im at a loss

 

Are they falling off (but still whole) or ore they breaking / being cut?