Traction Tyres - friend or foe ?

[signalmanson]

Hi everyone.

 

I have a relatively new Kato EF210 that's shed a tyre.

 

Is re - shoeing a simple enough task - I'm not over confident at the prospect !

[kvp]

If you have a replacement tire (which is just a rubber band), you just put it on the wheel. If it's a steam locomotive, only then you are in trouble. I would check your layout for sharp rail joins though. They can cut off the tyres very easily if run through in the wrong direction.

[HantuBlauLOL]

It's one of my best friends. I replaced every downed rubbers with a double sided tape.

[cteno4]

Another alternative

 

http://www.bullfrogsnot.com

 

I've not used it myself yet, but heard great reviews.

 

Jeff

[signalmanson]

The tyre is still on the wheel - it's just come off the rim ( like a bicycle tyre )

 

Presumably I'll need to remove the truck assembly for better access - do they just simply pull out of the chassis  - the same as Atlas ?

[Kiha_120]

Another alternative

 

http://www.bullfrogsnot.com

 

I've not used it myself yet, but heard great reviews.

 

Jeff

I have a jar- used it once on an old knackered 14xx, but the model was so useless I never found out if this product was effective or (s)not !

[Kiha_120]

I'm surprised that Kato would even consider using traction tyres - I thought they ( tyres) were obsolete.

They ought to be !  I have a couple of dmu sets thus fitted, and a 28xx which was a present from an 'ex' and has these useless tyres on it's tender drive ( another subject ! ) .

I find running 'lumpy' ( trains always lurch from side to side ) these tyres tend to make track filthy as well as reducing reliable connectivity for the motor.

The dmu's I will perhaps, do something about , by either replacing the wheelsets or filing down the outer edge of the groove and using weights to hold the things down on the rails.

Finally, you are welcome to my almost new jar of Bullfrogsnot if you want to try it - I don't have any plans for using it now - you can contact me via this site for posting details.

Btw, I like your suzumabachi logo !

Edited July 23, 2015 by Kiha_120

[katoftw]

Since when did tires become obsolete?

[kvp]

I find running 'lumpy' ( trains always lurch from side to side ) these tyres tend to make track filthy as well as reducing reliable connectivity for the motor.

The dmu's I will perhaps, do something about , by either replacing the wheelsets or filing down the outer edge of the groove and using weights to hold the things down on the rails.

 

You probably have a layout that is a known enemy of traction tyres, one with non level tracks. If your 4 wheel bogies are meant to balance on an average of 2 wheels, then it's normal for the trains to lurch and shake when the tyres are making and breaking contact with the rails. Especially if you have a situation when most tyres on a train loose and capture grip at the same time. The classic solution is to reduce loads on the motor and reduce the top speed, so the bogies have more time to follow the rails. Having working secondary suspensions and at least compensated bogies also helps. Tomytec has excellent coil spring based secondary suspensions on many of its N scale trains. If you feel you need weights in any train, then you are driving far faster than the tracks of the layout would permit, so slowing down instead of weighting down is easier. Most japanese trains should work with the weight they get by default, while Tomytec train collection items have some extra weights that could be installed during motor assembly.

 

Traction tyres are not obsolete, they are the current trend on most trains that are meant to be played with. Many older trains and the full Maerklin Z scale range has no traction tyres at all, but they are much harder to drive without getting wheelspins. My advice would be _not_ to file down the wheels as that would make the wheelset unbalanced, so if you can't replace a rubber tyre with a metal one, then it's always better to replace the whole wheelset with a tyreless one. Anyway if your tyres are getting on the rails, that means either your rails are not smooth enough (often the result of using abrasive track cleaning) or the rail joint transitions are not smooth. For example most Tomix tracks have slightly filed down ends, while kato tracks are sharp, resulting in a sharp edge when the two pieces are not aligned perfectly in the vertical direction. It's important to clean up any residual dirt and rail coloring paint from the inside edge of the rails too, as most traction tyre wheels pick up power with their flanges only. Polishing the rails and making sure the tyres are not protuding above the grooves of their wheels helps too.

[signalmanson]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

Apologies if this thread has opened a ' can of worms ' but all I want to know is how hard / easy it is to get the tyre back on the rim.

 

The tyre is not broken, I need to know whether I need to remove the wheel set and whether this just a simple pull out motion from the body.

 

As I mentioned before the loco has had very little use so maybe uneven track was the cause of the tyre becoming detached from the rim.

[katoftw]

The tire is very easy to get back onto the wheel.  Typing any of these posts would have taken longer.  Don't be scared, give it a go.

Edited July 23, 2015 by katoftw

[kvp]

If the rubber ring is loose and can be turned without turning the wheels, then you have to change it. If it's just misaligned, then a toothpick could help. If the bottom cover (with the side frames) of the bogie can be removed, then you can remove the wheels that way and fix the tyre. If you have to remove the bogie to get to the wheels, then it will be harder. You can't just pop out the bogie in a reversible way. Imho there was a thread here somewhere about the disassembly of a Kato EF210.

[Kiha_120]

Since when did tires become obsolete?

They became obsolete here as soon as I found out how problematical they could be !  On the layout I have, the gradients are not 'gentle' and those things were shed as a pastime - not to mention the gunge they encourage on rail surfaces.

Some may like them - I don't.

[katoftw]

Wow.  You are in for a world of pain and time wasting then if you stick with this hobby.

[cteno4]

Kiha,

 

I would look at the bullfrog snot, it's a way to get away from tires but still get traction and don't have the issu of a unbalanced truck w,o the tire.

 

Jeff

[kvp]

 

On the layout I have, the gradients are not 'gentle' and those things were shed as a pastime 

Kiha_120, i think those trains without traction tyres would either not make it up the grade or just burn their motor because of the frequent wheelslips. The problem is that you seem to have a layout that is more oriented towards rack railway operation that adhesion. Maybe you could try some of the excellent fleischmann rack locos, that have all metal wheels and climb the gradients with real cog on rack rail power. I think that a good model layout should have gradients that are usable without traction tyres and if one is built like that, then if a train does have some, it won't really matter and they won't get stripped because of overstressing.

 

Most of the Kato units need the removal of the wheel to fix it, unless the decorative bogie covers could be removed without dismantling the train. Fortunately all Tomytec motors have this feature, you just pop off the side panel and you have full access to the wheels. Some of the Tomix motors are also in this category but not all. Steam locomotives with powered drive wheels are especially problematic, one of the reasons powered tenders were popular in the past. (all my Z and N scale steam locomotives are powered through their main driving wheels, even the 40 year old ones)

 

ps: Actually for my Lego trains, i have traction tyres on all powered wheels and they are badly needed to get enough pulling power from a 0.5 kg locomotive to pul a 10 kg train with journal bearings though hairpin curves.

[Kiha_120]

Wow.  You are in for a world of pain and time wasting then if you stick with this hobby.

How do you come to that conclusion ?  I have been with model train layouts since approx 10 y/o - all I say ( from a PERSONAL viewpoint ) is I don't like rubber traction tyres - I find them useless and unnecessary - adding weight makes up for underweight models and solves the traction issue.  So far, I have no problems in running ex t/t models on the layout I have,  where gradients are similar in ratio to the Lickey bank in the Midlands. ( by necessity  may I add - not choice.) :)

[Kiha_120]

Kiha_120, i think those trains without traction tyres would either not make it up the grade or just burn their motor because of the frequent wheelslips. The problem is that you seem to have a layout that is more oriented towards rack railway operation that adhesion. Maybe you could try some of the excellent fleischmann rack locos, that have all metal wheels and climb the gradients with real cog on rack rail power. I think that a good model layout should have gradients that are usable without traction tyres and if one is built like that, then if a train does have some, it won't really matter and they won't get stripped because of overstressing.

 

Most of the Kato units need the removal of the wheel to fix it, unless the decorative bogie covers could be removed without dismantling the train. Fortunately all Tomytec motors have this feature, you just pop off the side panel and you have full access to the wheels. Some of the Tomix motors are also in this category but not all. Steam locomotives with powered drive wheels are especially problematic, one of the reasons powered tenders were popular in the past. (all my Z and N scale steam locomotives are powered through their main driving wheels, even the 40 year old ones)

 

ps: Actually for my Lego trains, i have traction tyres on all powered wheels and they are badly needed to get enough pulling power from a 0.5 kg locomotive to pul a 10 kg train with journal bearings though hairpin curves.

Thanks for you reply - may I refer you the answer I give to Mr. katoftw - save me typing it all out again, but I appreciate your helpful suggestion re rack and pinion - the gradients I have are not THAT severe,  just long ( about 40 feet from level to level)

[Kiha_120]

Kiha,

 

I would look at the bullfrog snot, it's a way to get away from tires but still get traction and don't have the issu of a unbalanced truck w,o the tire.

 

Jeff

The colour of it puts me off Jeff !   It's too much like REAL snot for my liking ! ( why isn't there a "laughing" e-mote on here ?)

:) :)

[cteno4]

Well I doubt you could get in a position to ever really see it on the tracks (well maybe on a stream loco) and from all reports it works and may solve your problem. Also once on the wheel and dry I'm not sure it's that color anymore, might look around at some of the review sites and youtubes to see. Taking tires off will cause those wheels not to meet the track well on some models.

 

Jeff

[Robert46]

Allow me to share my point of fiew.. as I collected some shinkansen sets only.. traction tires are only used for the long car sets.. mostly the 10, 12 or 16 cars set... and for short 6 or 7 car sets, there are no traction tires provided on the motor cars..

 

Btw, I did some trial with my E1 12 car set, noted there are two motor cars.. I removed the traction tires and it still worked, but there is a little noise from the wheels, pretty sure it was lack of friction with the track.. and I don't see any issue with unbalanced trucks, although I'm sure the wheel with the tires off don't make contact, but other wheels did..

 

I would suggest using traction tires for running long full set as it would maintain the work efficiency from motor, connector rods and gears.. but for shorter set 6-10 car set of shinkansens, it's up to us to use it or not.. as it will still give good enough power output..

[katoftw]

Allow me to share my point of fiew.. as I collected some shinkansen sets only.. traction tires are only used for the long car sets.. mostly the 10, 12 or 16 cars set... and for short 6 or 7 car sets, there are no traction tires provided on the motor cars.

I haven't come across a modern model that does not have traction tires. Any model from 1 car to 8 cars has traction tyres.  Kato, MicroAce, Tomix.  All have them.  Even a small Tomytec tram motor as traction tyres.

Edited August 3, 2015 by katoftw

[Robert46]

I haven't come across a modern model that does not have traction tires. Any model from 1 car to 8 cars has traction tyres.  Kato, MicroAce, Tomix.  All have them.  Even a small Tomytec tram motor as traction tyres.

 

Well, but I have the Kato E6 7 car set and Kato E3 toreiyu 6car set with no traction tyres...  of course they are modern models.. I only have picture of Kato E3 toreiyu at the moment..

 

In addition, not sure with Tomix E6 or Tomix E3 as I don't have one..

Edited August 3, 2015 by Robert46

[Martijn Meerts]

I'm 100% positive my Kato E6 has traction tires actually, just like every other Kato model I have, be they single locomotives or sets from anywhere from 2 to 16 cars. Also, all my Tomix and MicroAce have traction tires as well.

 

Actually, I think the only trains I have with no traction tires are my Lenz 0-scale ones.

[Robert46]

I'm 100% positive my Kato E6 has traction tires actually, just like every other Kato model I have, be they single locomotives or sets from anywhere from 2 to 16 cars. Also, all my Tomix and MicroAce have traction tires as well.

 

Actually, I think the only trains I have with no traction tires are my Lenz 0-scale ones.

 

Hi Martijn.. :)

 

Since you posted Kato E6 has the traction tires, I thought that I might be wrong... and last night I checked again on it to make sure and found out that it really has no traction tires...

 

I think it's strange if Kato released the E6 randomly to use traction tires or not.. perhaps my Kato E6 is different from other releases? I'm not sure but that's what I got..