European vs Japanese models.

[Sascha]

I guess this was brought up already, but in another forum a Japanese guy said that he didn't like Japanese N Gauge trains, because they are far inferior to European models.

I'm not very experienced in that, so I would like to hear y'alls thoughts on it please.

[ToniBabelony]

From my own experience and those of friends, it is usually the other way around. I think that person just wants to be interesting himself and/or isn't interested in Japanese trains anyway.

[Martijn Meerts]

Depends... Some European trains are really high quality and have things like metal frame and/or shell and high power motors and advanced head/tail light configurations. Of course, those trains also cost 4-5 times as much as a Japanese train. There are however also a lot of European models that really aren't very good. For example, I have a steamer which came with a factory installed decoder, cost as much as about 3 Kato steamers, and the thing has never run well. It's been back to the factory for checkup/repairs twice, but it still regularly locks up and stalls on just about every turnout, including Peco's electrofrog turnouts ...

 

Of course, my best example is still my Marklin H0 ICE2 set, which runs so terribly bad and makes so much noise, it's only really useable as a static display model :)

[Melandir]

Depends... Some European trains are really high quality and have things like metal frame and/or shell and high power motors and advanced head/tail light configurations. Of course, those trains also cost 4-5 times as much as a Japanese train. There are however also a lot of European models that really aren't very good. For example, I have a steamer which came with a factory installed decoder, cost as much as about 3 Kato steamers, and the thing has never run well. It's been back to the factory for checkup/repairs twice, but it still regularly locks up and stalls on just about every turnout, including Peco's electrofrog turnouts ...

 

Of course, my best example is still my Marklin H0 ICE2 set, which runs so terribly bad and makes so much noise, it's only really useable as a static display model :)

 

I can quote Martijn 100%

 

It depends a lot from model to model, one particular that on average I feel it looks inferior on Japanese trains compared to European ones is the pantograph, but I can survive on that :)

[Nick_Burman]

I can quote Martijn 100%

 

It depends a lot from model to model, one particular that on average I feel it looks inferior on Japanese trains compared to European ones is the pantograph, but I can survive on that :)

 

For me the opposite is true - Japanese pantographs are infinitely better than the European counterparts, never mind that they dont make contact with the overhead wire. Not only I can live with that but I rather prefer that way. So much so that a few artisans in Germany have turned to making dummy pans in brass to add to European electric locos (and works of art they are).

 

As far as I'm concerned the Japanese product is infinitely superior to its European counterpart - I have a Kato C56 (as an example) which is a gem in terms of detail and runs infinitely better that any European steam loco.

 

 

Cheers NB

Edited July 6, 2015 by Nick_Burman

[Matteo_IT]

I have lots of N...

For me, the best are Kato and Atlas, USA models.

Also Kato TGV series are great.

British N is not bad... Graham Farish and Dapol are good quality and price not so expensive.

Fleischmann and MiniTrix european coaches are more or less expensive but in comparision with Kato (USA and Japan) coachese Kato are the best, for price and also for quality...

[velotrain]

Japanese pantographs are infinitely better than the European counterparts, never mind that they dont make contact with the overhead wire. 

 

 

What overhead wire?  ;-)

[kvp]

From the reliability point, most japanese trains are far more reliable than any european ones. Detail wise it depends on the builder and the model. This means there are lower quality sets amongst european (often called playtime) and japanese (kokuden and tomytec) trains. Japanese trains can be either basic, standard or highly detailed. European trains have a similar system. In terms of technology, japanese trains are usually better, inculding reliable power coupling, 0 mm close couplers, standard interior lights, wheel tip pickups and working bogie suspensions. The no gap close coupling is something not quite achieved for european trains in N and most interior lights have classic axle grinding wipers even factory installed ones. What european trains have and japanese ones usually don't is working pantographs. This usually means european pantos are more robust and less prototypical but they can pick up power from a live overhead. (and shoot straight up if raised without an actual overhead) Detail wise the most detailed locomotive i have is a Kato steamer, which has separate piping installed around the boiler, something that is usually cast in one piece even on the newest mass produced european locomotives.

[HantuBlauLOL]

Price of 1 European loco = 5 Japanese loco.

 

Japan win hands down.

 

European model won in spare parts availability, but 5x more expensive is just not worth it.

[westfalen]

Price of 1 European loco = 5 Japanese loco.

 

Japan win hands down.

 

European model won in spare parts availability, but 5x more expensive is just not worth it.

You can afford to buy an extra Japanese loco to use for spare parts. :)

 

But I agree, for what you get for your money Japanese trains are miles in front of anyone elses.

[Davo Dentetsu]

It very damn close I reckon.  But price wins it for the Japanese every time.

[westfalen]

Apart from Kato they are mostly made in China these days anyway.

[Matteo_IT]

The problem is not made in China or made in other countries...

The problem is the quality of project, quality of assembly and quality of everithing regard the model...

For example, for italian H0 scale, old Lima (made in Italy) was much more better than the new Lima Hornby (made in China) as these models have no good painting (sharpness and chrome). Acme models have good painting but the performance are not quite good like Roco... Too many details to remove or not place in to run loco or carriage in normal radius (450-500 mm radius). Many times spare parts are too  much delicate...

Often are present joint of the mould in the sides... for an H0 Kato joints are pratically invisible...

[kvp]

I have a good example. Three locomotives made around the same time:

 

One is a Kato Nohab with C-C wheel arrangement, all axles are powered, with decoder socket and space for a small speaker in the roof for a sound unit. Runs great, but has two small paint errors compared to the original prototype. Comes with all accessories installed, which is a problem since the modern radio antenne is not needed for the museum version. So far the best runner from my european N scale locomotives. (i have two, a heritage and a private operator variant)

 

The second is a Minitrix Nohab, C-C and works, except it has the wrong roof. Not a slightly bad one, but a completly different one from another locomotive. The decoder socket is a special standard which is not used by most manufacturers. I didn't get this, since half of the loco is wrong. Price is double of the Kato version and quadruple if you want a decoder too.

 

The other is a Fleischmann M62 originally C-C, but only 4 axles are powered from the 6. Runs good, but has a slight clicking and jerking when changing direction as the bogies are too loose and the worms are pushing them around. Due to the 2 unpowered axles, it doesn't like hilly terrain at all and can loose traction on a full bogie on bumpier tracks (like turnouts). You can buy it for double the price of the the Kato or triple with a decoder already added or much more for a sound decoder equipped version. Opening it (to add a decoder) i found two strips of black duct tape covering the machine room windows since the internal circuit board was just at that level. (a nice green one line on the Kato, but at the wrong level) And there are some rather disturbing assembly problems, like improperly fitted front skirts and oversized buffers from a different locomotive class. The front curved part has visible print lines from the 3d inkjet printer they used for lettering, but only noticable when you are trying to read the road number.

 

Overall, the two Katos gave me the least problems, i only had to remove the two radio antennes from the museum unit. I skipped the minitrix as it's clearly wrong and the Fleischmann is good as long as you don't want to run longer trains (3-4 cars are ok) and can fix the assembly errors by taking it apart, putting it togeter again and swapping the buffers for the right ones. Prices are around the same, except Kato is half of everything else and even then you get a full 6-7 car japanese trainset for the price of this single locomotive.

[Welshbloke]

Depends entirely on the individual model.

 

One thing Japanese manufacturers could learn from is the way that pretty much all European N is equipped with close couplers. You usually need to change the coupler itself to get the full effect, but that's very simple to do as they all use the same NEM standard coupler pocket. It'd also be nice if they made larger batches of models - I have Kato 5037/8 14/15 series coaches but no 5036s to build a proper train with them.

 

Not all European brands are equal either. I have a few Arnold coaches (from when Hornby were dumping old stock on the market for next to nothing) and they're a big improvement on Fleischmann N due to having a more realistic ride height. The Arnold stock has much less of a gap between the bogies and the solebars.

 

As for the Marklin ICE2, I have one which, while slightly noisy and under scale length, runs smoothly and would have no problems with a full seven car train. Mine's the later "Hobby" model with the eight wheel drive chassis/can motor/flywheels setup. About my only complaint is that they set the starting voltage a touch too high on the decoder as it tends to spring into life rather than easing away. The sound unit is very effective and even captures the echo of an announcement in a large station. I just wish they'd re-release the matching coaches to build a full set, as they haven't offered any in the original livery for almost twenty years and prices are ridiculous even if you can find one.

[Martijn Meerts]

 

As for the Marklin ICE2, I have one which, while slightly noisy and under scale length, runs smoothly and would have no problems with a full seven car train. Mine's the later "Hobby" model with the eight wheel drive chassis/can motor/flywheels setup. About my only complaint is that they set the starting voltage a touch too high on the decoder as it tends to spring into life rather than easing away. The sound unit is very effective and even captures the echo of an announcement in a large station. I just wish they'd re-release the matching coaches to build a full set, as they haven't offered any in the original livery for almost twenty years and prices are ridiculous even if you can find one.

 

I probably have an older version, I bought mine some 15 years ago. It is digital and with interior lighting built-in, but no sound.

 

Of course, I also have a Marklin Big Boy and a Gt 2x4/4, which are both stunning models.

[velotrain]

About my only complaint is that they set the starting voltage a touch too high on the decoder as it tends to spring into life rather than easing away.

 

I thought one of the big points of DCC is that you can change these things?

[kvp]

 

One thing Japanese manufacturers could learn from is the way that pretty much all European N is equipped with close couplers. You usually need to change the coupler itself to get the full effect, but that's very simple to do as they all use the same NEM standard coupler pocket.

Except that you still get too much distance, something in the range of a rapido equipped japanese trains have off the shelf. If you use shorter couplers, you get buffer locking in curves, since the close coupler mech is only reliable with at least a mm or so distance between each car. Some close coupled sets have as much as 4 mm between the buffers and around 2 mm between the cars. (the reason is usually bogie mounted NEM pockets which allow a larger car end swing) And then you have the non standard couplers, fairly popular for some brands, where you can't even have the option to use rapidos. Also, the NEM pockets are not as standard as i would like them, since they often can't hold a different brand coupler.

 

 

I thought one of the big points of DCC is that you can change these things?

It depends on the decoder and having the documentation and programming equipment to know where to change, what and how. Also many european maufacturers used SX in the past, which is incompatible with DCC. Nowdays some more expensive decoders are multiprotocol, but work differently under different systems. Add to this the various different DCC plug 'standards' and lots of models that have a built in decoder plate, so you either buy one with or without the decoder board, but you don't have the option to add a decoder later. In this regard, european N is almost as problematic as adding DCC to japanese locomotives, especially steam locomotives that many times are still issued analog only.

[Welshbloke]

I probably have an older version, I bought mine some 15 years ago. It is digital and with interior lighting built-in, but no sound.

 

Of course, I also have a Marklin Big Boy and a Gt 2x4/4, which are both stunning models.

 

Try making sure the brushes, brush holders and commutator are clean, and put a tiny drop of oil on both armature bearings. I have a few of their "pancake" motors and even with the old 6080 decoder without load regulation they're really not that bad when properly serviced.

 

I could probably reprogram the decoder if I had a controller able to do so. My 6021 can program ESU Lokpilots reasonably well, but the documentation with the ICE2 was very vague beyond changing CV1.

[velotrain]

It depends on the decoder and having the documentation and programming equipment to know where to change, what and how. Also many european maufacturers used SX in the past, which is incompatible with DCC. Nowdays some more expensive decoders are multiprotocol, but work differently under different systems. Add to this the various different DCC plug 'standards' and lots of models that have a built in decoder plate, so you either buy one with or without the decoder board, but you don't have the option to add a decoder later. In this regard, european N is almost as problematic as adding DCC to japanese locomotives, especially steam locomotives that many times are still issued analog only.

 

Thanks Viktor.  I didn't realize that some pre-installed decoders were preset and "read only".  I don't believe that's the case here in the U.S., as most DCC references I see mention programming tracks, etc.  I even added a decoder and sound to a HO diesel some 15 years ago, but have since decided I could live without it.

 

My current preference is that sound and light be provided by the imagination, and in the latter situation feel that it can actually distract - detract from the overall effect.  YMMV

[Welshbloke]

Well, the decoders I have only offer basic sounds (and then only when you trigger them with the function buttons). Normal running is just the whirr of a motor and the swish/click of wheels on rails.

 

On the ICE2 it has a horn, departure whistle, and a station announcement in German. So you can create a fairly realistic departure by pressing them in the right order. Another electric loco has a simple horn, and I also have a restaurant car with a whistle/announcement.

 

Most of my Marklin collection was picked up for next to nothing, as most UK ebay sellers either can't test it (so sell cheaply "as seen") or don't think there'll be much interest, so also sell cheap. Knowing a little about how they work can save money - I picked up an SBB RE460 for about 2/3rds of the usual price which ran like a bag of spanners on arrival. Five minutes tweaking the potentiometers on the decoder (earlier Marklin decoders use these to set top speed and inertia) and it ran perfectly again, as some bright spark had turned the speed up to eleven and the inertia off completely, so it took off like a rocket and was very hard to drive smoothly.

Marklin may be a bit heavy in places (like wheel flanges and exposed gearing) but it's solid and easy to service. Usually all "attic finds" need is stripping, a dunk in the ultrasonic cleaner to get the congealed oil out (obviously I remove any electronics before this!), then reassembly with a few drops of fresh oil. If you want to play trains for fun then it's probably the best option below G scale or Lionel-style O.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Welshbloke

[Martijn Meerts]

Try making sure the brushes, brush holders and commutator are clean, and put a tiny drop of oil on both armature bearings. I have a few of their "pancake" motors and even with the old 6080 decoder without load regulation they're really not that bad when properly serviced.

 

I could probably reprogram the decoder if I had a controller able to do so. My 6021 can program ESU Lokpilots reasonably well, but the documentation with the ICE2 was very vague beyond changing CV1.

 

It's undergone cleaning a couple of times, but it never improved. I think either the store sold me a 2nd hand model, or maybe a model that they had run on their store layout, or I just got unlucky and got a bad model that slipped through quality control somehow. I lived in Norway at the time, and bought it in Germany while on holidays there. I tried to get in touch with the store, but they never bothered to reply.

 

I seldom run my Marklin stuff these days, so I'm not really that bothered with it, but it's a good example that even brands that are generally known for their high quality models can and will have the occasional bad one.