Tomix points

[Oz_Paul]

One recurring issue I seem to have is some points do not (sometimes) move all the way resulting in derailments/ lack of power routing. This has become acute in the cross-over point which now always needs a manual follow-up tweak.

 

Not sure why this is happening as the power to these points are independent of the tracks.

 

Any suggestions? 

Edited June 19, 2015 by Oz_Paul

[kvp]

It might be that the voltage is too low and can't always move the turnouts (especially the double coil crossover) or the manual power pulses were too long and some of the coils are damaged). What kind of control circuits did you use for them?

[Oz_Paul]

I use 2 units of the basic Tomix Power unit N-600 which came with the tracksets to run the loops connected with a cross-over.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Oz_Paul

[kvp]

I assume you use the standard double coil (5532) turnout controller levers for your two coil turnouts instead of the single coil (5531) one and there are no extra power accessories (like street lights) connected to the speed controllers. Can you check if you have 12V DC on the accessory output rail of your power pack (used for turnout control) while the layout is running? (it should be measurable on the side of the last switch in your stack)

[Oz_Paul]

Good point. Just checked and both units output rails consistently read around 11.10V. No streetlights etc connected other than the turnout swithhes.

 

Have used 5532's for all turnouts (in conjunction with 5533 for the cross-over), except in the yard which uses 5531's as recommended (for the Tomix 1261 3-way points). Have installed only one 1261 so far with the next one in transit from Modeltrainplus.

 

Must confess that the layout was initially installed in the tool shed for a month or so and hopefully no damage done as a result. Took a few weeks of a Canberra winter to quickly relocate to warmer surrounds.

[cteno4]

paul,

 

might attach a small bit of tubing to your vacuum cleaner (or get one of those micro hoses with attachments you can pop onto the regular vacuum cleaner) and go at the point to see if there are any bits of smutz you can clean out of the point.

 

too much or too long of a power burst to move the switch can also make some points bounce back some. if no joy otherwise you might give a whirl of trying a simple capacitor discharge circuit (very simple circuit with a dpst and a capacitor) on one of the problematic points and see how that does. these circuits give just the pop of power to the coil to move it just right! pm me if you want me to get you the email address for a chap that can send you info on how to make one or there is a thread here with one kVp presented.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[kvp]

Imho the Tomix point control switches should contain all needed circuits, so as long as there is enough power (at least 12V DC) and the turnouts are clean, they should work fine. (the turnout mechanisms can pick up all kinds of dirt through the small holes at the top) One thing though, that these controllers can only supply power for one switch at a time and only when not fully loaded with a train. (they are startset grade) If this is the problem, then it can be solved by using a larger wall adapter (or controller) or a dedicated (accessories only) turnout control adapter or just stopping the train before throwing a turnout.

[Oz_Paul]

I did think of upgrading to using the T5506 N-1001's control units as I currently have 3 switches connected to one and 4 to the other.

[brill27mcb]

It should not matter how many points and control switches for them are attached, as long as you only throw one at a time.

 

I have never had a problem like this with Tomix points, so something funny must be going on. The Tomix N-600 power unit you have should be up to the task.

 

Rich K.

Edited June 19, 2015 by brill27mcb

[velotrain]

Paul - I don't know if it relates to your situation or not, but I had experienced something similar.  I was testing various modes using TCS, and sometimes experienced a turnout fully throwing, but then the tram stopped just past it on the selected route.

 

kvp analyzed it as the turnout drive being heated from too frequent activation, and setting a TCS delay time before reversing (slowing everything down) took care of the problem.  However, Rich K. says he uses TCS for an entire day at shows with no problems, so no idea what the answer there is.

 

I don't know how frequently the problem turnouts are thrown when you operate, but the turnout not throwing completely could be a variation of the power routing not completing.  If you have the ability, you might try swapping out one of the problem turnouts.  My experience was that this happened on certain turnouts consistently - although, another may have been about to fail, but never had the chance as it was always pre-empted.

 

Another test is to increase the time period between using the crossover (especially if normally frequent), and see if that makes any difference. 

 

Hmmm  . . .  does anyone produce turnout cooling units  .  . . retrofit heat sinks  . . .

[kvp]

 

Hmmm . . . does anyone produce turnout cooling units . . . retrofit heat sinks . . .

Any larger chunk of flat metal under the turnouts should work. There are two ways to let them cool though. One is to set the station delays higher, the other is to have a larger layout, so the trains reach the sensors later.

 

 

It should not matter how many points and control switches for them are attached, as long as you only throw one at a time.

If it works reliably while the trains are stopped, then there isn't enough power in the controller to do both. Having only 11.1V at the 12V output might be a sign of this. A good vacuuming could also help. Third might be corrosion on the contact surfaces of the control switches and the turnout sliding contacts, which can happen if they are stored in a high humidity environment.

[velotrain]

Also remember that the crossing is actually throwing two turnouts at a time, so it could be a power problem as Viktor suggests.

 

Perhaps consider dedicating one pack to just the crossing?

[railsquid]

Ho-hum, second point in a row to show the same problem, similar to the issue described here - the blades do not move all the way across sometimes.  After much investigation, I've ruled out any problems on the electrical end (both motor and switch) and determined it's mechanical - the switching mechanism sometimes "catches" and causes resistance/stiffness that the motor (well I guess solenoid) can't overcome. By a process of elimination I'm pretty sure the two sprung copper strips highlighted here:

are causing the problem - they take care of the power routing and move when the mechanism is thrown.Removing them solves the problem, albeit at the expense of power routing.

 

As these seem to be a common point of failure, I think I may remove them on any further points and handle the wiring differently.

Edited August 30, 2015 by railsquid

[kvp]

Just try it first with higher voltage and/or current. Sometimes the throwing switch doesn't provide a strong enough pulse and the moving part gets stuck. Another common problem is improperly installed coil or turnout. The coil is removable and can be inserted wrong and when fixing the turnout down, you have to make sure the bottom and sides of the manual lever are not touching anything. Third possible problem is wiring. Connectors and wires can have a high resistance when installed improperly. Make sure that you use a proper tomix controller and turnout switch and all other problems above are tested before you remove the power routing.

[railsquid]

Like I said:

 

After much investigation, I've ruled out any problems on the electrical end (both motor and switch)

[kvp]

That still leaves you with two: coil installation and the manual lever rubbing. I'm thinking about this problem, since i have a number of tomix turnouts and the only way this problem appeared was either not enough power or the lever rubbing on someting. Third possibility would be a damaged coil or point blades, the latter i had once with a used turnout.

[Oz_Paul]

In my case the issue seemed mechanical too and likely caused by the layout being earlier located in the tool shed. I since had to replace the crossover and the three way turnout and everything has worked perfectly since (touchwood!)

 

My track readings were around 11.5v and took KVP's advice and now have a dedicated controller for majority of the turnouts except the crossover.

[railsquid]

That still leaves you with two: coil installation and the manual lever rubbing. I'm thinking about this problem, since i have a number of tomix turnouts and the only way this problem appeared was either not enough power or the lever rubbing on someting. Third possibility would be a damaged coil or point blades, the latter i had once with a used turnout.

 

Like I said, I ruled out anything electrical, including the actual solenoid units. I stripped the point down to examine how it works and where the problem could be; the actual switch part moves fine by itself, only when the two power routing springs (highlighted in the picture) are installed does the problem occur. From which I deduce these are prone to slipping out of place slightly and impeding the progress of the switch in one direction, which can be overcome manually with a slight wiggle and/or extra pressure, but is too much for the solenoid. This is repeatable with the solenoid unit removed and moving the switch manually a few times. Unfortunately it's impossible to see exactly what's going on, despite careful reassembly multiple times.

 

As I've had exactly the same problem with another point previously (the solenoid is still in place on the layout, only the point itself was swapped out), I'm beginning to suspect this may be an issue with these points which I'd rather not encounter after they've been fixed in place.They haven't seen particularly heavy usage and are in a stable inside environment. All I can think of is that pressure exerted while installing (or deinstalling them) may have cause something to bend out of shape very slightly; the problem with the current point occurred right after I'd removed and reinstalled the adjacent points.

[kvp]

Tomix turnouts (as most roadbed turnouts) should be left floating when the rest of the tracks are fixed down. It is important to avoid any streessing (bending) of the turnout both during installation and in use as this might deform the moving parts. You can of course remove the power routing and make the turnout power everywhere with solder bridges, but that actually defeats one of the nicest features of the tomix fully power routing turnouts. However, you may not need them.

 

I'm pretty sure it's possible to install and operate the turnouts as designed without having this problem. Also i'm not sure that after you remove the power routing, your problem will go away as the problem seems to be that the bottom circuit plate is pushed towards the moving parts and this causes too much friction.

 

ps: Not tightening the bottom screws that much and leaving the turnouts floating with a bit of space allowed under them might fix it without modifications.

[inobu]

The turnouts creates a momentary magnetic field so the voltage level plays an initial role. There is a fixed center magnet that the magnetic field attracts to. Once it pulls to the center magnet it is the magnet that draws and holds the point.

 

Although some do not believe it. The turns outs must be level and fixed. If the install of the turn out is not level and secure it can reek havoc. The weight of the train can cause the turnout to move and roll causing problems only detectable by the train.

 

If you have a flat piece of glass or a piece of 6mm plexi glass. You can tape the turnout to the sheet. This will insure that the turnout is level and flat. You can test out the turnout. You will be able to determine if the rail/point are tweaked or bent. This is why I dont recommend the file and notch remedy first. I do agree with kvp on loosening the plat a little to insure no rubbing of the internal parts but tight enough for the plate to hold the upper unit firm. 

 

Inobu

[railsquid]

These are Tomix, not Kato points. Absolutely no problems with any trains under normal conditions. As far as I can see there's only one magnet, which is attached to the switch and not fixed; it seems to both switch the point (there's no mechanical connection between the point switch and the point rails) and facilitate the solenoid switching (by being attracted/repelled from each side of the solenoid coils). I will have another try to see if I can establish where the power routing springs are causing problems; I tried various combinations of screw tightness but didn't seem to make any difference.

[inobu]

I understand they are tomix but the concept of the flexing of the turnout remains the same.

 

My suggestion is to secure the turnout flat and straight. Then you will be able to determine if the turnout will operate in that idea condition. If it does not. Then you can focus on the internal mechanism. I think the Tomix has a locking spring that aides in holding the point in place. 

 

The magnet is fixed on the rail/level which swings towards either coil winding. The tolerance are really tight so one has to pay attention to detail.

 

Inobu

[kvp]

 

I think the Tomix has a locking spring that aides in holding the point in place. 

That's just the magnet pulling towards the metal core of the closest non energised winding. This is why non motorised turnouts still have the metal cores for the coils. Together with the split frogs, they make the turnout cuttable (like spring loaded real ones).

 

ps: I checked one of my turnouts and the only place where the thing can actually jam is the lengthwise bar/blade transition joint (this is where the magnet/manual lever piece transfers the movement to one of the blades that moves the other through the crossbar near the tips). Inserting the coils incorrectly or getting dirt at that place could block it, while overtightening the back plate or flexing the turnout horizontally could jam it. Adding non conductive (and preferably non liquid) lubrication at that place could help too, but it's a metal/plastic joint, so in theory should work dry, unless the the air is humid. (on the picture it's on the other end of the bar towards the tips) During installation it's imporant to never apply pressure or glue to the back plate, so fixing down should happen at the non backplate areas. This also allows non destructive coil replacement.

[Bob_NZ]

I am finding this thread interesting.

 

My layout has 139 Tomix turnouts, most being the older version with brown base and side clipping solenoids.   These have given good service over 20 or so years.  I do have some of the newer type with their superior looks.  Unfortunately the newer type are not proving as durable and have been starting to fail similar to your findings.  This is a real pain if the problem one is locked in a ladder of turnouts, and all are fully ballasted in place!     

I do not know what the current Peco turnouts are like - certainly their early models seemed to wear out the frogs which is why I originally went with Tomix.  Other than 4 sets of double crossovers, I have no experience with Kato turnouts - I never liked their high trackbed.  But if rebuilding a permanent layout again then I would tend to move to Kato rather than Tomix.

 

Bob

[kvp]

The Peco code 55 electrofrogs have durable metal frogs but you'll need their servo kit to drive them. Kato-s are just like the old brown Tomix ones, both in look and operation. Not much track variety though. Tomix finetrack turnouts are fine, but they are more sensitive and agressive track cleaning, mechanical stress and ballasting can damage them.