Italian Steam Loco

[Melandir]

Today I have been in a museum here in Milan that happen to have also some Italian steam loco

 

I'd like to share them with you

 

This green little steam loco, is an ancient Tramway of Milan called "Gamba de legn" used to connect Milan to the surronding towns

 

Here the wikipedia page, I'm sorry but it's in italian only

 

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamba_de_legn

 

[velotrain]

Your post reminded me of a wonderful color photo - perhaps a book cover - of a Milan steam tram spewing a large amount of black smoke and hauling orange-painted cars, as it charged through the outskirts of the city.  Sadly, I couldn't locate it - would you know this image?  Probably from the early 1950's.

 

However, I found a few other photos that I like.

 

I really love this overhead shot of a steam tram emerging from a building - you can tell from the long shadows that it's early morning.  It would be a striking scene to model, and could likely be done with kit-bashing.  Are there Italian companies producing HO scale structure kits?

 

Over the years I've tried several times to persuade English-language model railroad magazine publishers to form a consortium with such publishers in other countries, and perhaps on a quarterly basis each would produce an international survey of model railroading, available in many languages.  Here in the U.S. it's easy to find British M.R. publications and with more effort one Aussie (Narrow Gauge Down Under), but I know we're missing out on great modeling being done in mainland Europe, Asia, and South America.  I really think there would be a global market for this.  It wouldn't require any new articles or photos, merely translating already published articles.

 

 

 

 

This compact yard scene is not dissimilar from contemporary Japanese tram yards in the need to maximize usage of available space.  It looks like the tram system also handled some freight traffic.

 

 

 

 

This image of the Porta Nuova reminded me of a similar situation in Budapest.

 

 

 

 

[kvp]

Yes, you are right, there are places in Budapest where trams go through similar arches (although i only know of double track ones), but the most famous ones are in Graz and Prague.

 

However you are right about the old steam trams, there is one that is still operational, but haven't been out of the museum for 30 years. Here is one picture of it on it's 100th birthday in 1987: (with matching train)

[velotrain]

> there are places in Budapest where trams go through similar arches (although i only know of double track ones), but the most famous ones are in Graz and Prague.

 

I had labeled the image as Hungary when I saved it, and was only guessing the city as Budapest.

Are you saying that the ones you know have two tracks through a single arch?

Or, that you don't think this is Budapest?

 

I am well aware of the Prague gauntlet track.

 

I don't know of the one in Graz.

[velotrain]

Viktor -

 

I found images of the Tram Museum in Graz

 

 

 

 

and the very bizarre Kunsthaus (art museum), but no archway with trams running underneath - do you have a photo of it?

 

 

 

 

Charles

[kvp]

Ok, let's clear it up. The single arch photos with the yellow trams are imho from Milan, Italy. The red-white tram is from Prague and you have to look for the old town area of Graz (altstadt) for the pedestrian street running trams that curve around the streets and gates of the old castle. However there is no street view in the area. In Budapest, there is at least one arch that is crossed by a double track line in Buda, but generally the smaller tram lines running around small streets were replaced by trolleybuses many years ago, including the one going under a building at Deak square. (the general rule is: 1 bus load = trolleybus or bus, 1.5-2 bus load = articulated trolleybus or bus, 2-6 bus load = trams, 6-12 bus load = metro or suburban railway, so the minimal amount of traffic for a tram line is around 2 bus loads of passengers, while the minimal amount for a new line to be built or a bus route converted is at or more than 3 busloads per 5 minutes during rush hour, which can't be handled by 2 articulated trolley/bus units running 2-3 minutes apart)

 

ps: While the picture i was looking for is 404 on the blog (the text is still there), i found an interesting one by accident:

http://m.cdn.blog.hu/ha/hamster/image/peterhaseldine/Image_143.jpg

This is a short coupled articulated unit, very similar to the modern cobra/combino supra trams, just made many years earlier.

[Melandir]

Your post reminded me of a wonderful color photo - perhaps a book cover - of a Milan steam tram spewing a large amount of black smoke and hauling orange-painted cars, as it charged through the outskirts of the city.  Sadly, I couldn't locate it - would you know this image?  Probably from the early 1950's.

 

However, I found a few other photos that I like.

 

I really love this overhead shot of a steam tram emerging from a building - you can tell from the long shadows that it's early morning.  It would be a striking scene to model, and could likely be done with kit-bashing.  Are there Italian companies producing HO scale structure kits?

 

Charles,

 

the photo you are talking about could be one of the last run of "Gamba de Legn", the last unit has been retired from service in 1957

Because H0 scale is king here, you have a lot of structure choice, I'm not into H0 so I don't know a lot about them and about companies that build them, but I can take informations if you want, there will be a couple of good model fair, one in September and one in November were I'll attend with the club and I can do some search for you, just let me know what you need

 

I'll post more photo next time I'll be there

[velotrain]

After looking around some, I've gotten rather interested in the Gamba de Legn era Milan trams.  Here's a sampling of photos that I found.

 

I'm guessing this first one is shortly after the end of WW II, with box cars pressed into passenger service.

 

 

 

 

Grainy, but a good close-up of the Gamba de Legn entering the street.

 

 

 

 

Here, likely in the 50's, a more modern tram waits for the steam tram to enter the street.

The driver doesn't look very happy at having to wait.

 

 

 

 

This could be the 60's, but an interesting shot of a truck-based overhead maintenance vehicle.

 

 

 

 

A view of the yard, probably early 20th C.

 

 

 

 

An overhead shot of the track where the terminal joins the street.  A bit reminiscent of Lisbon, which also has places where the track leaves the "main" on one side and then crosses it, to achieve a sharper angle.

 

 

 

 

A map showing the relationship of the tram terminal to the street trackage.  I hadn't suspected that the track punching through the building connected to the terminal.

 

 

 

 

I also found a few videos:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtMKZy5ZAe4      From 1953

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRVXAnq3xsE      Early 20th C.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOa07w2aug4     

 

Short color film from the 50's, showing Il Gamba de Legn steaming off into the sunset - the end of an era.

[Nick_Burman]

Today I have been in a museum here in Milan that happen to have also some Italian steam loco

 

I'd like to share them with you

 

This green little steam loco, is an ancient Tramway of Milan called "Gamba de legn" used to connect Milan to the surronding towns

 

Here the wikipedia page, I'm sorry but it's in italian only

 

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamba_de_legn

 

IMG_1656.JPG

 

Ah, the Leonardo da Vinci museum...familiar ground... :-)

 

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

This compact yard scene is not dissimilar from contemporary Japanese tram yards in the need to maximize usage of available space.  It looks like the tram system also handled some freight traffic.

The steam tramways (there were once several, of which the line to Magenta and Castano Primo was only one) did once upon a time carry a lot of freight - before trucks skimmed it off, "trams" were usually mixed, handing both freight and passengers. So much so that the belt line around the former walls (the "Circunvallazione") was built originally to permit through freight working between the different companies (which were later amalgamated into what it today Milan's Azienda Transporti Metropolitane) and also to allow freight to reach Milan's Central Market (much of the traffic was of agricultural nature). In some places in Milan space was really tight - when there were trams on Corso Buenos Aires (Milan's main popular shopping street) these ran down the middle, while the steam trams used a bidirectional track along the east side curb. Naturally there was much less vehicular traffic in those days...

 

 

Cheers NB

 

 

 

[velotrain]

Melandir sent me a link to an Italian modeling forum, where I found an image similar to the one I initially was thinking of.

 

 

 

 

No orange paint - I suspect I was remembering the red skirt, but plenty of black smoke.

 

[velotrain]

Viktor - sorry I misidentified  the Milan tram as being in Budapest.  As mentioned, when I saved the image there were indications that it was in Hungary. 

 

In retrospect, I should have noticed the similarity of the "Hungarian" tram to the Milan cars.  Actually, looking at the two photos more closely, they seem to be opposite sides of the same location, even though the stonework is quite different on each side, and what is stone on one side is brick on the other (the smaller car "arch").  It is only the detail on the balconied building shown in both shots that confirms it is the same place - which  I never would have guessed.  I checked after I started wondering just how many archways with tram lines Milan had.

 

I had no success finding the Tram-arch in Graz, and the net doesn't seem to have any photos posted.

 

I did notice that Graz has many contemporary trams, and one very old style.

 

 

 

 

[Melandir]

Ah, the Leonardo da Vinci museum...familiar ground... :-)

 

 

Cheers NB

 

Have you been there Nick?

 

It's not a popular places and even in Milan not a lot of people know about it and even less people know about the trains stored there

 

I remember them, because my parents took me there a couple of times when I was a child and i was fond of the locomotive I saw there

[Nick_Burman]

Have you been there Nick?

 

It's not a popular places and even in Milan not a lot of people know about it and even less people know about the trains stored there

 

I remember them, because my parents took me there a couple of times when I was a child and i was fond of the locomotive I saw there

 

Twice, in fact - once in 1996 and the second time March last year, when I stopped in Milan on my way back from Japan (mother's wish...).

 

The 1996 visit was a letdown, everything was plastered in dust and looking very forlorn. Last year's visit came by accident, I was planning to do a day trip to Chiasso to photograph freight trains but TreNord decided to go on strike on that particular day (I went on the next day, though) so I ended up riding the trams and visiting the museum before joining up with my mother outside the Brera. This time round I noticed that the museum is in much better shape - new exhibits, new signage and no dust. Just as well I put my nose in, as I took a picture of the Valtellina Ganz electric loco which will find its way into a friend's book.

 

 

Cheers NB

[velotrain]

I found an image of the tram just punching through the tunnel exit.

 

No wonder there's a policeman there - the cab crew is obviously blinded until the smoke clears.

 

 

[velotrain]

I discovered another tram arch - tunnel, this one in Bern.  It is on a page about the steam tram there, which apparently operates on a regular basis.

 

http://www.internationalsteam.co.uk/trains/switzerland10.htm

 

 

I just thought that a series of arches would be a good way to divide multiple scenes on a small, urban tram layout - more prototypically correct for Europe, but it could be transplanted to Japan with some creative designing.

 

 

 

There is a proto gauntlet track under an arch, but it's not in a downtown setting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nick_Burman]

There is a proto gauntlet track under an arch, but it's not in a downtown setting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In fact this was in a very urban location - inside the former Nagoya Castle moat. The roadway was the original entrance to the castle. The line has long been since diverted away from the moat to terminate in a connection with the Metro.

 

 

Cheers NB

[velotrain]

OK Nick - it just didn't look anything like other urban/downtown areas that I've seen  ;-)

 

I can see the station platform, but no buildings visible along the track.