Freight tram - not your grandfather's steeplecab

[velotrain]

This brings parts to a VW assembly plant in Dresden.

 

 

[katoftw]

Interesting.  More info required.

[kvp]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CarGoTram

Essentially it's made out of old tatra trams (which are actually PCC-s) and is used to carry car parts to a factory instead of moving them by truck.

 

A similar cargo movement still happens from time to time in Budapest too, except the electric trams are more than 100 years old box motors and the locomotives are diesel electric road switchers. I swear the BKV is the last company in the world that still runs long hood forward on street tracks...

http://www.villamosok.hu/balazs/teher/sokmukifc1.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6ugL09m-Hc0/Tcq6bts7EvI/AAAAAAAAE_M/Ey7i5qlWPb4/s1600/acsev_bobo_tigris_hogep_cinkota.jpg

http://users.atw.hu/rakodohely/DSCF1629.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dJX4v-Ryf7Y/T1b6u_Xbz1I/AAAAAAAAG_M/Gx556WjNtZw/s1600/_IMG_3428_hu_bkv_m44.735_budapest.kerepesi.jpg

[katoftw]

Clever idea.  Must be a very very very long term investment considering the 13 million outlay.

[kvp]

That's around 6.5 million euro. Considering they are 15 years old nowdays, that is around 0.433 million euro per year. The costs are similar to what you get with 6 tractor trailers instead of the 2 trams, except since this is a downtown show factory, the city wouldn't allow trucks to be used, so it was trams or nothing.

[utrainia]

Now that is cool! Found a photo of it being unloaded:

[velotrain]

 

A similar cargo movement still happens from time to time in Budapest too, except the electric trams are more than 100 years old box motors and the locomotives are diesel electric road switchers. I swear the BKV is the last company in the world that still runs long hood forward on street tracks...

 

http://www.villamosok.hu/balazs/teher/sokmukifc1.jpg

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dJX4v-Ryf7Y/T1b6u_Xbz1I/AAAAAAAAG_M/Gx556WjNtZw/s1600/_IMG_3428_hu_bkv_m44.735_budapest.kerepesi.jpg

 

Viktor - the first photo shows the old box motors in shed, while the last one shows contemporary (?) coaches being moved, so I'm not understanding just what the cargo movement is?

[kvp]

Sorry, i was just copying the first google hits, here are a few more pictures:

http://www.bygmodell.hu/muki.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a98ccMwvTCA

and a few older ones:

http://www.villamosok.hu/nza/7052mosz.jpg

http://villamosok.hu/nza/7050bf.jpg

http://villamosok.hu/nza/7041mosz.jpg

http://villamosok.hu/nza/7051ujp.jpg

http://www.villamosok.hu/balazs/teher/deli2.jpg

http://www.villamosok.hu/balazs/teher/keptar/belso/egyeb11.jpg

http://www.villamosok.hu/kepek/muki/muki4.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRZdV-2jTZ4

 

and since we didn't have any snow for years now, this spring the sweepers were used for line testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoCd78gnSHk

 

Unfortunately it's getting rarer and rarer to see any freight movement in the city, mostly due to the fact that all factories have been moved outside the city limits. Rolling stock movement with these units is still very common though. And yes, those are contemporary suburban emu-s and even the previous generation is still in service, which is only 52 years old, so relatively new compared to some of the 1954 slamdoor commuter stock still in use on the mainlines. (http://iho.hu/img/galery/141214-behave_5.jpg)

 

Actually many tram lines on the Buda side are currently being rebuilt (construction started this spring), to allow direct cross city connection between the north and the south part of the network and many old high floor trams will be replaced with new low floor ones. Most of these rebuilds cut the freight intercange connections to decrease the number of turnouts and allow a higher line speed and better ride quality. The result is that many companies have been forced to switch to trucks or in many cases move outside the city to newly built industrial areas, which can be served by rail directly. The only actively used freight connection i know about is near the 'elessarok' (sharpcorner) area in south east Pest, where the newly rebuilt line still has some of the freight interchange tracks and turnouts in place, but imho this is only temporary as the area is designated for conversion from industrial to mixed residential/commercial.

[Nick_Burman]

Sorry, i was just copying the first google hits, here are a few more pictures:

http://www.bygmodell.hu/muki.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a98ccMwvTCA

and a few older ones:

http://www.villamosok.hu/nza/7052mosz.jpg

http://villamosok.hu/nza/7050bf.jpg

http://villamosok.hu/nza/7041mosz.jpg

http://villamosok.hu/nza/7051ujp.jpg

http://www.villamosok.hu/balazs/teher/deli2.jpg

http://www.villamosok.hu/balazs/teher/keptar/belso/egyeb11.jpg

http://www.villamosok.hu/kepek/muki/muki4.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRZdV-2jTZ4

 

and since we didn't have any snow for years now, this spring the sweepers were used for line testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoCd78gnSHk

 

Unfortunately it's getting rarer and rarer to see any freight movement in the city, mostly due to the fact that all factories have been moved outside the city limits. Rolling stock movement with these units is still very common though. And yes, those are contemporary suburban emu-s and even the previous generation is still in service, which is only 52 years old, so relatively new compared to some of the 1954 slamdoor commuter stock still in use on the mainlines. (http://iho.hu/img/galery/141214-behave_5.jpg)

 

Actually many tram lines on the Buda side are currently being rebuilt (construction started this spring), to allow direct cross city connection between the north and the south part of the network and many old high floor trams will be replaced with new low floor ones. Most of these rebuilds cut the freight intercange connections to decrease the number of turnouts and allow a higher line speed and better ride quality. The result is that many companies have been forced to switch to trucks or in many cases move outside the city to newly built industrial areas, which can be served by rail directly. The only actively used freight connection i know about is near the 'elessarok' (sharpcorner) area in south east Pest, where the newly rebuilt line still has some of the freight interchange tracks and turnouts in place, but imho this is only temporary as the area is designated for conversion from industrial to mixed residential/commercial.

 

 

kvp,

 

How much of the BKV system is/was accessible by normal railway freight cars? Do they still have an interchange(s) with MÁV?

 

The BHÉV system once had a sizable freight operation (complete with RIV-enrolled freight cars), but AFAIK it's mostly if not all gone now.

 

Cheers NB

[kvp]

How much of the BKV system is/was accessible by normal railway freight cars? Do they still have an interchange(s) with MÃV?

 

Originally all tram tracks were usable with standard prussian freight interchange cars (G10-s), but this got extended on most of the network to modern european freight cars (notable exception was the subway under the Buda part of the Chain Bridge which was too narrow even for many trams, this is being torn up and rebuilt right now).

 

The remaining freight interchange points are one at the Deli railway station, one near the Elessarok, two around Ors vezer square (one from the BHEV lines to the Eastern railway station and one from the Korvasut through the metro depot to the tram tracks) and i think there is another point around south Buda around Kelenfold and apparently the one at Albertfalva was retained when the old station was demolished last summer when the mainline was upgraded to 4 high speed tracks. There should be one around the Ferencvaros freight terminal as the remaining traffic is mostly around there. The still in use BHEV points are at Aquincum and Godollo, but today they are only used for passenger train interrunning and the occasional ballast/rail train.

 

The BHEV (Budapest Local Interest Railway) and the BKV (Budapest Transportation Company) is actually the same company, so this is the reason why the BHEV diesels/electrics and the BKV muki-s are used together. Many old suburban lines were converted to tram use when the city reached them, so for example the south Buda suburban lines were switched to tram mode in the 1960-ies, so trams could run from the downtown across the city limits. This was done because most of the lines were already street running. From the 6 lines that were retained as suburban routes only 5 is in use today and the remaining Csepel line even got upgraded to higher speeds and street running was mostly eliminated. The remaining suburban lines run mostly on their own right of way, while the tram lines are mostly street running, including the heavy metro capacity lines 4 and 6.

 

The main BHEV freight operation was eliminated by the general privatisation after the dissolution of the eastern block, but privately owned freight cars are still allowed and many private freight operators sprung up to replace the national one (which actually still exist, but does mostly nothing). This means at Ferencvaros, you can even see a burning private operator locomotive with a fuel train attached, which is not a sight local want to see too often. Since private locomotives are not allowed on the streets, any freight movement between the mainlines and any remaining factories must be done by the BKV, mostly with old BHEV and BKV equipment. Most of the remaining freight traffic is bulk cargo, which would be unconvenient to transfer to trucks and construction materials that would be expensive or hard to transport on city streets. The usage of rail/truck excange frames (lightweight, often canvas covered, non stackable containers) means most freight can be moved from railcars to tractor trailers easily at the only remaining freight depot in Ferencvaros.

 

The main use of the interchange points nowdays are interrunning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy5WdgDPgZk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueFz2AF2cNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=230pSQQBKKY

 

And i found a nice old video too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nS_xj9psVg

 

Anyway the following constructions are in progress right now:

-tram tunnel rebuild around Lanchid (2 lines)

-tram track rebuild around Dobrentei square (3 lines)

-tram track rebuild between Margit bridge and Vorosvari ut (1 line)

-tram track rebuild on the grand bulvards between Szell Kalman ter and Octogon across the Margit bridge (2 lines)

-tram track rebuild at Szell Kalman ter (6 lines)

-tram track rebuild at Batthyany square

-suburban tunnel rebuild between Batthyany square and Margit bridge (2 lines)

-mainline rebuild from Deli to lake Balaton

-mainline tunnel repair at Deli

-metro track replacement on the north-south line (only done during weekends)

 

Already finished projects from last year:

-tram track rebuild and speed upgrade at north Buda

-new high speed tram tracks at south Buda (phase 1)

-mainline rebuild between Budapest and Esztergom

-mainline rebuild around Kelenfold

-bridge reconstruction at Keleti station

-trolley line relocations around Keleti railway station

-new metro line between Kelenfold and Keleti railway station (took decades and got finished by building only half of it)

-tram and freight track rebuilds around Elessarok (this is the only one i don't understand, it's in the middle of nowhere)

-metro track replacement and station upgrades on the east-west line

-tram line reconstructions around Ujpest

 

Projects that will start next year and are already decided:

-new high speed tram line from Keleti station to Ujpalota (the rolling stock for it is arriving right now, so they have to hurry up)

-metro track extension on the north-south line from Ujpest to Kaposztasmegyer

-tram line reconstructions around Kaposztoasmegyer

 

And the BKK (parent company of BKV/BHEV/MAV/VOLAN/etc.) decided to do everything at the same time. So a sizable portion of the city is in chaos right now. They started this spring and plan to finish everything to the national holidy of aug. 20. (the offical holy day for the first king of Hungary saint Stephen I. of Hungary). Until that, the surplus 'red 7' bus rapid transit buses used on the route of the new metro line are providing tram, suburban train and metro replacement services everywhere. Nobody belives all this is will be ready in time, but we'll see...

[velotrain]

Viktor - I think you more than answered Nick's question!

[Nick_Burman]

Originally all tram tracks were usable with standard prussian freight interchange cars (G10-s), but this got extended on most of the network to modern european freight cars (notable exception was the subway under the Buda part of the Chain Bridge which was too narrow even for many trams, this is being torn up and rebuilt right now).

 

The remaining freight interchange points are one at the Deli railway station, one near the Elessarok, two around Ors vezer square (one from the BHEV lines to the Eastern railway station and one from the Korvasut through the metro depot to the tram tracks) and i think there is another point around south Buda around Kelenfold and apparently the one at Albertfalva was retained when the old station was demolished last summer when the mainline was upgraded to 4 high speed tracks. There should be one around the Ferencvaros freight terminal as the remaining traffic is mostly around there. The still in use BHEV points are at Aquincum and Godollo, but today they are only used for passenger train interrunning and the occasional ballast/rail train.

 

The BHEV (Budapest Local Interest Railway) and the BKV (Budapest Transportation Company) is actually the same company, so this is the reason why the BHEV diesels/electrics and the BKV muki-s are used together. Many old suburban lines were converted to tram use when the city reached them, so for example the south Buda suburban lines were switched to tram mode in the 1960-ies, so trams could run from the downtown across the city limits. This was done because most of the lines were already street running. From the 6 lines that were retained as suburban routes only 5 is in use today and the remaining Csepel line even got upgraded to higher speeds and street running was mostly eliminated. The remaining suburban lines run mostly on their own right of way, while the tram lines are mostly street running, including the heavy metro capacity lines 4 and 6.

 

The main BHEV freight operation was eliminated by the general privatisation after the dissolution of the eastern block, but privately owned freight cars are still allowed and many private freight operators sprung up to replace the national one (which actually still exist, but does mostly nothing). This means at Ferencvaros, you can even see a burning private operator locomotive with a fuel train attached, which is not a sight local want to see too often. Since private locomotives are not allowed on the streets, any freight movement between the mainlines and any remaining factories must be done by the BKV, mostly with old BHEV and BKV equipment. Most of the remaining freight traffic is bulk cargo, which would be unconvenient to transfer to trucks and construction materials that would be expensive or hard to transport on city streets. The usage of rail/truck excange frames (lightweight, often canvas covered, non stackable containers) means most freight can be moved from railcars to tractor trailers easily at the only remaining freight depot in Ferencvaros.

 

The main use of the interchange points nowdays are interrunning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fy5WdgDPgZk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueFz2AF2cNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=230pSQQBKKY

 

And i found a nice old video too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nS_xj9psVg

 

Anyway the following constructions are in progress right now:

-tram tunnel rebuild around Lanchid (2 lines)

-tram track rebuild around Dobrentei square (3 lines)

-tram track rebuild between Margit bridge and Vorosvari ut (1 line)

-tram track rebuild on the grand bulvards between Szell Kalman ter and Octogon across the Margit bridge (2 lines)

-tram track rebuild at Szell Kalman ter (6 lines)

-tram track rebuild at Batthyany square

-suburban tunnel rebuild between Batthyany square and Margit bridge (2 lines)

-mainline rebuild from Deli to lake Balaton

-mainline tunnel repair at Deli

-metro track replacement on the north-south line (only done during weekends)

 

Already finished projects from last year:

-tram track rebuild and speed upgrade at north Buda

-new high speed tram tracks at south Buda (phase 1)

-mainline rebuild between Budapest and Esztergom

-mainline rebuild around Kelenfold

-bridge reconstruction at Keleti station

-trolley line relocations around Keleti railway station

-new metro line between Kelenfold and Keleti railway station (took decades and got finished by building only half of it)

-tram and freight track rebuilds around Elessarok (this is the only one i don't understand, it's in the middle of nowhere)

-metro track replacement and station upgrades on the east-west line

-tram line reconstructions around Ujpest

 

Projects that will start next year and are already decided:

-new high speed tram line from Keleti station to Ujpalota (the rolling stock for it is arriving right now, so they have to hurry up)

-metro track extension on the north-south line from Ujpest to Kaposztasmegyer

-tram line reconstructions around Kaposztoasmegyer

 

And the BKK (parent company of BKV/BHEV/MAV/VOLAN/etc.) decided to do everything at the same time. So a sizable portion of the city is in chaos right now. They started this spring and plan to finish everything to the national holidy of aug. 20. (the offical holy day for the first king of Hungary saint Stephen I. of Hungary). Until that, the surplus 'red 7' bus rapid transit buses used on the route of the new metro line are providing tram, suburban train and metro replacement services everywhere. Nobody belives all this is will be ready in time, but we'll see...

 

kvp,

 

 

Wow, what an update. I went to Budapest in 1996 and rode the Szentendre line (and, of course, visited the pretty museum next to the station); later I came across articles both in print and in the web telling a bit of the (VERY) complicated history of the BHÉV and BKV systems.I can identify more or less the locations you mention, but I think freight ops were more localised - from a knot of industries to the nearest MÁV interchange. Bar the passage of a Muki, I fear that quite a bit of the BKV system is off-limits to railway freight cars - I really can't imagine (for instance) a freight bending its way around Moskva Tér...

 

According to one of the films BHÉV gave up on freight in 1996, to the point that they actually reliquished their UIC subscription (UIC number 44) which means that they are barred from interchanging (?) with MÁV, except for equipment transfers.

 

The MÁV trains seen on the Szentendre line must have been the test runs for the rerouting of the Esztergom line trains while the bridge across the Danube was being rebuilt a few years ago.

 

Cheers NB

[kvp]

I really can't imagine (for instance) a freight bending its way around Moskva Tér...

 

This is under the overpass at Moskva square: (now renamed Szell Kalman square)

Sadly the big factory was finally demolished this year. (actually it was more of a controlled collapse)

The whole network at the square is beging taken up and relaid as a double track delta with 3 stops, so trams coming from any direction can contiune to any other directions. There will also be a stub track for the cog wheeled line being extended a bit to the east. The video i linked above (with the large road swithers) was also taken partially at the Moskva square, but sadly at night, so youcan't see much.

 

but I think freight ops were more localised - from a knot of industries to the nearest MÁV interchange. 

 

That is the basic idea. There are 4 large terminal stations in the downtown, so the freight could go anywhere. The industries were located next to the stations. (from these only the area around the old Ganz factory remains active, but it will be cleared and rezoned soon)

 

The MÁV trains seen on the Szentendre line must have been the test runs for the rerouting of the Esztergom line trains while the bridge across the Danube was being rebuilt a few years ago.

Yes, the line was more or less completed this year, so the dmu-s beame a familiar sight. Now the new line will be fully electrified, so the electric trains could travel regularly between the MAV and the BHEV lines and even enter the newly rebuilt tunnel for the final stretch to Batthyany ter to connect to the metro line 2. The flirts for this service are planned to be painted green with white. (regional sets being red/white and the new s-bahn sets being blue/white) We'll see if there will be enough money to buy the new sets for the rebuilt line.

 

which means that they are barred from interchanging (?) with MÁV, except for equipment transfers.

 

No, this means they can only transfer cars of registered providers and can't own their own, for example private company owned freight cars and MAV cars are still allowed, but these became a really rare sight too. Also, the BHEV locomotives can't enter MAV tracks outside of yard limits. This is why lately some of the equipment transfers on MAV tracks had to be done by locomotives registered as heritage units, since the dedicated heritage operator still has an international freight/passenger license. (it's a bit complicated as in reality these companies are in various government hands and most of this juggling is to get around EU regulations as cheaply as possible) You know that, when a couple of heritage painted ancient nohab-s from the museum pull the ballast train for the Esztergom line reconstruction that something is not quite right. But apparently they were the only ones with a running licence for all the required lines. It was also a surprise to me that they managed to squeeze the 6 axle locos through the 100 meter radius BHEV curve. Hopefully this will be cleared up soon, with new trams and new suburban sets arriving right now and the new interconnected tram system being completed in the near future. (it's a huge reconstruction on the Buda side done at the same time everywhere)