Digitize Series 113-2000 Shonan Train (4-Car Set)

[herve37]

Hi

 

Has Somebody already digitized série 11 200 shonan train with control of motor and cab and tail  lights. Which décoders to use and how to program them. Some advices would be welcome.

Thanks

 

To clarify my post, I intend to use a digitrax DZ 126 Z in the motor car and 2 X DHF 253 for the cab and tail lights. Any comment or advice about that?

Edited May 1, 2015 by herve37

[E6系]

Hello Mr herve37,

 

Please advise on manufacturer and product code for the 113系.  Then, maybe, I can provide some assistance.

[herve37]

Hi

Sorry for that. I spoke about 11 200 shonan train KATO product code 10 808.

[E6系]

Hello Mr herve37,

 

Thank you for providing that information.  I wanted to check if the model accepted the Kato EM-13 and FL-12 decoders.  Unfortunately, it does not.

 

I would also use the DZ 126 by Digitrax.  This is because Digitrax also manufacture the Kato decoders.  Therefore, the Kato decoders are equipped with Transponding, just like the Digitrax decoders.  

 

I am not familiar with the features of the DHF 253. If it does what you want it to do, then use it. 

 

The Kato FL-12 will simply reverse the direction of lights with a change in the direction of travel.  If I want to do this on models that do not accept the FL-12 decoder, I either solder leads onto the FL-12 and wire it in separately, or use another DZ 126, or DZ123 which is cheaper.  Using either of these decoders I can also turn the lights on and off manually, but I cannot dip them as older express trains used to do at stations.  I program the cab decoders to the same address as the motor decoder.  That way, the lights reverse automatically, the whole consist transponds to the same address, and I know when the lead car enters a block and when the last car leaves a block.

 

When using Digitrax motor decoders for function only, you will need to connect the motor wires to a 1k Ohm ¹/₂W resistor.

 

Finally, many brands make fine decoders.  If you want Transponding then please use Digitrax, because it is fully compatible with the features of Kato decoders.  Otherwise, please select your favourite brand.

[kvp]

I woule like to ask how should we program the digitrax decoders if the motor outputs are used for the headlights, to keep the lights fully lit when the train is stationary?

[E6系]

Hello Mr kvp,

 

Please allow me to clarify: I am not using the motor outputs to control the lights.  I use the normal function outputs.  However, for the decoder to function properly Digitrax advised me to install a 1k Ohm ¹/₂W resistor across the motor outputs.  The decoder is then working the same way as a Kato FL-12.

 

Now to your question: this is a very interesting point.  Actually, I would like to have this feature on my consists.  I wonder, if I set V_min to a setting lower than will actually move the train on the motor decoder AND simply slow the train so that it physically stops, but the decoders think it is still moving forward.  Would this work?

 

Actually, when I met with Mr Dave from Loco1 some time ago, he discussed the idea of wiring the light board to the motor outputs and setting V_min, V_mid and V_max to the same value, such that was suitable for the light board. Then, if V_min on the motor decoder was set as I mentioned previously the lights would still be on.  The advantage of Mr Dave's idea is theoretically, the light board would not need modification.

 

I am yet to explore either option.  What are your thoughts?

[kvp]

 

Please allow me to clarify: I am not using the motor outputs to control the lights. I use the normal function outputs. However, for the decoder to function properly Digitrax advised me to install a 1k Ohm 1/2W resistor across the motor outputs. The decoder is then working the same way as a Kato FL-12.

This would mean the head/tails lights are split and doesn't require a bipolar output (like on FL12 compatible sets) or they have to be modified.

 

 

Now to your question: this is a very interesting point. Actually, I would like to have this feature on my consists. I wonder, if I set Vmin to a setting lower than will actually move the train on the motor decoder AND simply slow the train so that it physically stops, but the decoders think it is still moving forward. Would this work?

Yes. It would just heat up the motors and the exact stopping point would depend on the grade. (so it might stop the train on level track, but keep it crawling downwards on a slight ramp) However if the decoder has load compensating motor feedback, then it would just ramp up the power until the train moves at the set minimal speed, regardless of the power required to do so.

 

 

Actually, when I met with Mr Dave from Loco1 some time ago, he discussed the idea of wiring the light board to the motor outputs and setting Vmin, Vmid and Vmax to the same value, such that was suitable for the light board. Then, if Vmin on the motor decoder was set as I mentioned previously the lights would still be on. The advantage of Mr Dave's idea is theoretically, the light board would not need modification.

The problem is any exact stop command (or set to zero speed command) would still turn the lights off. Many people choose to stop by pressing the stop button or turn the dial all the way down, instead of staying just a bit above 0. While it would work very similar to using the same trick in analog, but in most cases the drivers would just turn the lights off when they stop.

 

The proper solution seems to be to add a bidirectional driver chip between the decoder and the lights, powered by the decoder or two extra rectifier diodes and held in off state by two pullup resistors. When the decoder pulls one of the outputs down, the driver chip translates this to an active high/low or low/high signal. Inactive will be high/high.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

The correct way to do this is to use a function decoder and turn the lights on and off as separate commands.  There is then no need to use the motor decoder in a cab car.  

 

If you wish to be compatible with the Kato decoders, use a Digitrax TF4.  You can assign F0-F12 keys to each of the four functions.  The TF4 does not support Rule 17 dimming of lights at a railway station, for example, but it does include Transponding if you use that Digitrax feature.

 

An alternative is the TCS FL4, which supports Rule 17 dimming of lights but does not include Transponding.

 

I don't think we dim the lights at railway stations in Japan anymore.  I last witnessed it sometime in the mid 1980's on the Gotemba line.

 

Also, to use either of the above, you must modify the light boards to create two separate circuits.

 

Good luck with your installation.

[herve37]

Hello Mr herve37,

 

 

 

The Kato FL-12 will simply reverse the direction of lights with a change in the direction of travel.  If I want to do this on models that do not accept the FL-12 decoder, I either solder leads onto the FL-12 and wire it in separately, or use another DZ 126, or DZ123 which is cheaper. 

 

 

Thank you for your answers. It's cleare for me now. But just another question: using the ka

[herve37]

 

 

The Kato FL-12 will simply reverse the direction of lights with a change in the direction of travel.  If I want to do this on models that do not accept the FL-12 decoder, I either solder leads onto the FL-12 and wire it in separately,

Dear E6. Thank you for your answers. It's clearer for me now. But just another question: using the kato decoder FL12 seems good because he is small enough for beeing easily hiding. But would you have a scheme of wiring because I would'nt burnt the decodeur by a wrong wiring.

[E6系]

Hello Mr herve37,

 

Sure.  Here is the blog of a colleague who uses the Kato decoders in other models.  You can understand from the photos.

 

FYI: white is headlight, yellow is tail light, blue is common.  The resistor is ¹/₄W 620 Ohm 5%.

 

http://tacn22.webcrow.jp/dcc/friendly/

[katoftw]

What was the resistor for?

[Melandir]

What was the resistor for?

 

Resistor is need to avoid killing the leds

[kvp]

It's used for current limiting after the original protection diode(s) (if any) and resistor(s) are removed. A proper installation would keep one resistor for each led on the light board. (it may involve adding two new ones after splitting the head/tail circuits)

Edited May 11, 2015 by kvp

[E6系]

Hello Mr kvp,

 

Actually, most light board that has both head light and tail light utilise single resistor and two diodes to protect LED from reverse current.  As reverse current is not an issue with DCC a single resistor on the common wire is all that is required to form a proper circuit.

[kvp]

Until you try to turn on both leds, because the one opening first (having a lower turn on voltage) will get all the current and the other stays off. This problem is especially bad with different color leds, as their turn on voltage is widely different. By using software in the decoder that only turns one of the outputs on solves this. Still the led circuit has to be split and the two wire reverse polarity leds have to be rewired as three wire, same polarity, pull to ground leds. If the modder is careful enough and the DCC voltage is low enough, the old resistor on the light board can be kept.

[Ochanomizu]

Hello,

 

Under what conditions would you be running the head and tail lights together?

[kvp]

 

Under what conditions would you be running the head and tail lights together?

Mostly under operator error. Other than that it'll work as long as there is only a single led for each direction. Having seen light boards with 5 micro leds i would always try to keep the boards intact as much as possible and use the original resistor(s).

 

Otherwise i would try to use a bipolar decoder or a bipolar conversion circuit between the decoder and the light board. (if there is enough space)