Digitizing KATO EH200 and EH500(Photo and Video)

Hello again after a long period of my abscense!

At last, i ve digitized my   КАТО ЕН200 и ЕН500 locos and adopt it for applicable mooving

Photo after reconstruction:

CONSTRUCTION:

This Locos have all axles powered and pickuped,  They powered - OK, but trere is not ok with electric pickup!

This locos have 1 motor, good plastic and coupling between 2 sections.

Pantographs:

These locos have non-workable and nonconductable pantographs. Therefore, in aim to pickup DCC, i used Sommerfeld pantographs! They are connected to underroof motherboards via conductive springs and feed 2nd shoulder of decoder's rectifier in aim to improove electric pickup via wheels.

REPAIRABILITY:

it was made more convenient to open EH500.  But, on the contrary, it's very problemmatic to open  EH200(Blue)

DIGITIZEABILITY:

ЕН500 has space for decoder and wires under roof. EH200 - hasnt! It must be milled.

Both locos have axles and trucks in fixed horisontal plate. They are not sprunged. Therefore, inspite of a lot of axles - there are very bad current pickup! (See below how to cure it)

Decoder is placed at motor section. 7 flexible wires connect both section together. They are wheels, powerpack, pantographs, directional and cabin lights. Powerpack is placed at second section in the free space where motor is abscent.

MOOVING ABILITY:

ЕН200 is more noisy in comparison of EH500. Both locos often loose shunts and all wheels  need to be springrd.

How to modify current pickup lameles, see there:

Full metodology is there:

http://qps.ru/g2Qhw]http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/vadimav/album/125846/

The mooving capability after modification see there:

ЕН500:

ЕН200:

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Vadim

VAD, you are "insane"..........LOL...(Term used in a the GOOD sense).

I have been pondering how to address the effects of an off camber track...(Causes momentary loss of contact hense flickering)..............springing the wheels.

That's the direction.............Very impressive....

Inobu 

Very nice. Great low-speed operation, and an interesting modification to the wheels. Although I don't think red is a prototypical color for JR pantographs. I know that's the color they come in, but you might want to think about painting the non-contact surfaces.

But what's the capacitor for?  And 16V seems pretty small, unless you'll only ever run on your own track.

Very nice. Great low-speed operation, and an interesting modification to the wheels. Although I don't think red is a prototypical color for JR pantographs. I know that's the color they come in, but you might want to think about painting the non-contact surfaces.

 

But what's the capacitor for?  And 16V seems pretty small, unless you'll only ever run on your own track.

I use DCC, and i use PowerPack Capacitor with Lenz Gold+ decoder, which can read DCC commands even through isolator, powering via powerpack only when mooving via dust:

See video:

In this case large powerpack is changed into 9V battery for convenience of demonstration.

Both, improoving KATO current pickup using springing (like in Tomix), in addition to working pantograph and reserving rails by working catenary, as well as using large powerpack, - large tantalium capacitor, attaching after decoder's rectifier  - will guarantee errorneous automatical movements of trains at realistic speeds and accelerations.

As to color of pantograph - i believe that there are modeles of russian-adopted locos, where red pantograph are used.

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Vadim

Vad, dont worry about the red pantograph, Your post goes far beyond the color of a pantograph. After looking at your mod have you tried

this posibility?

I'm thinking that over time the wheels will cut into the pickup wearing it down? Replacing would warrant a rebuild. It would be easier to replace a spring or

cap?

It looks like the tolerance is too loose on the original pickup?

Inobu

[smg id=1487]

KenS I cant even believe you even brought up the color of the pantograph. lol

Had to watch the video again.............that's good contact on the track....lol

Good job.....

Inobu

Vad, dont worry about the red pantograph, Your post goes far beyond the color of a pantograph. After looking at your mod have you tried

this posibility?

 

I'm thinking that over time the wheels will cut into the pickup wearing it down? Replacing would warrant a rebuild. It would be easier to replace a spring or

cap?

 

It looks like the tolerance is too loose on the original pickup?

 

Inobu

 

[smg id=1487]

 

 

KenS I cant even believe you even brought up the color of the pantograph. lol

 

 

 

Hello, Inobu.

About my method:

I use springing via pressing at top of wheels flanges method  DURING 3 YEARS of INTENSIVE working of my layout. It's work fine and no any wear-out of flanges or springs are detected.

But one rule must be fulfilled: Springs must have so weak strength, so that, axles must lie on arresters at own mass of loco. Therefore, pressing force do not will lead to wearing out of anything. I use 0.3 mm thick flat berrilium bronze having a very low friction coefficient. Brushes(where flange touch the spring) has 0.5mm soldered  berrilium bronze boots against any probable wear out in future. But springs of locos which havent additional boots (with only 0.3mm berrilium bronze springs) still looks excellend after 3years!

About Your method:

I cannot understood how Your method will spring wheels at vertical axle.

Moreover, If KATO will modify conductive lameles, adding springing between point of attaching and needle bearings - it would be excellent. But made this by hand - very problemmatic and fiddly. 

As to pantographs:

I remove original pantographs and install Sommerfeld ones. No any additional paining.

It looks excellent! More like as european or russian locos.  I dont have an aim to have strongly precise copies of locos. They must have only approximately look. Electrical properties and dependability more important for me.

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Vadim.

As to pantographs:

I remove original pantographs and install Sommerfeld ones. No any additional paining.

It looks excellent! More like as european or russian locos.  I dont have an aim to have strongly precise copies of locos. They must have only approximately look. Electrical properties and dependability more important for me.

 

 

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Vadim.

As long as "you're" happy with it then that all that matters, thats what modelling is all about in my opinion.

Great job though i kinda like the red too stands out like on the 800 tsubame shinkansen.

I have to say also i'm impressed with the video and work you have done.

So are you going to do overhead wiring on your layout?

About Your method:

I cannot understood how Your method will spring wheels at vertical axle.

Oh so its not just plain copper or brass. "Berrilium".

The method I proposed just limits the vertical movement of the axle your method eliminates it but hard to replicate.....................but wait you gave me an idea I need to check....

Inobu  

About Your method:

I cannot understood how Your method will spring wheels at vertical axle.

 

The method I proposed just limits the vertical movement of the axle where as your method eliminates it but it is hard to replicate.....................but wait you gave me an idea I need to check....

Inobu

ahhhh no good.

I had these bearings but they are too big....

[smg id=1488]

Can you believe these are actual bearings.............lol

Vad you identified the problem for sure as your units runs the way it suppose to.

Oh that would be so sweet having bearings to rely on instead of the needle axles.

Very interesting modification to the trucks. Where do you get your BeCu sheeting? I can't find an easy supply on the internet…

tooo funny.

Inobu

 

So are you going to do overhead wiring on your layout?

Yes.

But i already have working catenary in tunnels. It'w work excellent!  And i havent any stall of E-loco at tunnels, where it's too difficult to get it from.

There is the foto of my opened tunnels:

And there is the Video, how it works:

There is the Video, which show the antidust and reverse loop properties of working catenary:

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Vadim

About Your method:

I cannot understood how Your method will spring wheels at vertical axle.

 

Oh so its not just plain copper or brass. "Berrilium".

 

The method I proposed just limits the vertical movement of the axle your method eliminates it but hard to replicate.....................but wait you gave me an idea I need to check....

 

Inobu  

 

 

The idea is to make  only springed vertical flexibility between needle bearings and attachment place in usual KATO current-pickup lameles. it's possible to use flat springs.

See picture:

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Vadim

vadim,

Seriously top post.  Thanks for sharing this.

Cheers

The_Ghan

nice can see you have put alot of work and passion into this.

great work. I would love to do a working catenary but seems too hard for me.

 

 

The idea is to make  only springed vertical flexibility between needle bearings and attachment place in usual KATO current-pickup lameles. it's possible to use flat springs.

 

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Vadim

 

Yeah I see what you are talking about..Like this....right?

[smg id=1489]

 

 

The idea is to make  only springed vertical flexibility between needle bearings and attachment place in usual KATO current-pickup lameles. it's possible to use flat springs.

 

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Vadim

 

 

Yeah I see what you are talking about..Like this....right?

 

[smg id=1489]

 

 

Approximately Yes.

But each flexible part of lameles must have 2 spaced parallel flat springs,  (I and You imagine only one) in aim to guarantee only vertical movements of bearings. Side movements and angle movements under mass load will lead to touching the truck body, and efficiensy of springing will be deleted. Also, spring must have enough conductivity in aim to bring shorts at turnouts without firing up and distorting. For this reason flexible part must be sufficiently wide.

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Vadim

The design is based off your conceptual drawing in a basic configuration.

But here is the next article that address the stability issues. (This is a good exercise in problem solving and design. I'm enjoying this.)

Here is the revision 2.  

[smg id=1490]

Objective: maintain contact to the axles/wheels via light pressure tension.

Recourse: create a configuration that responds to the vertical movement of the axle without inducing a braking force. (Which is what your configuration achieves).

The criteria I added was a drop in replacement or close to.

My Theory:

The two principles we have for "contact pressure" is gravity and tension. Gravity from the body of the train and tension from the pick ups attached to the center of the motor frame. The key is the distribute the tension force in as many point as possible without over loading the pressure applied to the axles.

Here are the three points for applying pressure.

1. The upper pickups on the crown of the "lameles"  

2. The gravity channeled via the slot on the "Lameles"

3. The angle of the armature's elbow.

The length/height of the slot establishes the high and low mark applied by gravity. The low mark should be just below the center of gravity allowing for the armature to complete the contact point.

Final tension control is based on the thickness and position of the armatures pivot point.

I wish I had time to test this.  

Inobu  

gotta get back to work....

Anyway. Vadim you did/do exceptional work/research....keep it up.

Thanks, but it seems that  spring is too tight and bearing will not to flexible in Your case.

Springs must be too flexible, and bearing must lie on arresters at own mass of loco, which can be on truck body. Another way: axles can lie on internal arresters inside truck (now in my case. ) In my case i use 2 parallel flat springs which guarantee vertical extra flexible movements and will deny side movements which can lead to loosing axles from trucks.

Vertical deviations must be approximately about 1.5mm per 10gramm of load. This deviation is enough and will cover turnout crossings  and other nonidealities of track.  Side deviations must be 10 times smaller, less than 0.1mm per 10 gramm.

See picture:

Please tell KATO my suggestion, because i havent any experience in Japaneese!

KATO already thought about springing, but one of KATO solution has only middle axle springed. This is BAD solution. Side tension of springs is not rough, and other wheels is unspringed.

BAD SOLUTION:

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Vadim

This thread just keeps getting more and more interesting!

This thread just keeps getting more and more interesting!

Thanks.

Erlier we discussed there about Japan 2-part freight locomotive modelles.

But, are there Japan 2-part passenger electric locomotive modelles?

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Vadim

Man, this is fascinating! I wish some of these model train manufacturers would hire you guys!

Erlier we discussed there about Japan 2-part freight locomotive modelles.

But, are there Japan 2-part passenger electric locomotive modelles?

I don't think so. Loco-hauled passenger trains aren't all that common anymore, most are EMUs or DMUs. And historically the ones that did exist were hauled by a single electric locomotive (most recently the EF64, EF65 and EF81 a well as diesel DE10 and DD51 locos). When JR East needed to modernize its few remaining trains they developed a passenger version of the EF510, the EF510-500 series, but that's a single unit, not a dual loco like the EH types.

It's possible that an EH200 or EH500 has been used for passenger service, but wikipedia says that both models are owned by JR Freight, so it doesn't seem likely as a regular thing, and I've never seen a photo of one in such use. And aside from those and Toei's E5000 (which are single locomotives used in permanent pairs for "heavy haul" uses) I'm not aware of any other double locomotives.

If anyone does know of one I've overlooked, I'd be really interested in hearing about it.