Going Japanese!!!

[kvp]

The 65 mm would be logical for 2 viaducts to be able to run together (track center*2-1), however since the track centers are much closer for Kato than for Tomix, it wouldn't be possible to make tighter radiuses with that, so they extended. The side effect is that now you can't run multiple viaducts close together. On the other hand, i checked Tomix clearances and they are indeed 74 mm wide (37 for single track ones), so you can just attach a large number of curved and straight viaducts next to each other and track spacing would still be correct at the next turnout.

[Pauljag900]

Thanks mate

[katoftw]

Dont quote me on this.  But Im think you can run kato viaduct next to eachother.  it is why the brought out those newer wide base 4 track catenary poles with the removable middle support.  The poles go on the outside of the fence.

 

But since Kato do 282-315 and 381-414, you'll never have the curves next to eachother.  As they will be 66mm apart.  And they dont do the 447-480 as viaducts.

 

Jeez Kato annoys me with the lack of track choice.  Tomix has easily beat them in the track pieces and varience game.

[Pauljag900]

Thanks mate,,it was always my intention to combine my tram layout into a larger train layout but due to limited space at the moment I decided to make the tram layout as a separate model first,as it's almost finished and my log cabin due to be made and fitted soon it's time to start planning the larger train layout around the tram,I m a relative novice at all this but I ve noticed the same thing,as good as the kato is,tomix have the larger variations and choices.that said I m definately going with the kato.

[katoftw]

I'm only a novice also.  After almost 2 years of playing on the floor.  It's time to move up to a 4x8 table or larger.

 

With your layout, have you tried a plan with your current bus/tram layout in the centre, with trains on the outside?

[cteno4]

I'm pretty sure the kato single viaduct pieces can be run in parallel with 33mm spacing, if memory serves me right. I have some single viaduct somewhere I'll see if I can locate it and check.

 

The kato and tomix have similar geometry and it works out. It's just tomix did a more robust set of sizes to give more options.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[Pauljag900]

Hi mate,no I hav nt,I hav nt actually bought any train stuff yet,the grand plan is to build an "L" shaped board and put the tram in the middle of one side and run double viaduct track around it then incorporate a double track into it all at ground level.I m going to order the kato v13 viaduct set and v11 as my two start sets then add to it as I go along.If I ve done my calculations correctly the tram layout should fit into the middle of the v13,if not then I ll run it across the tram layout some how,I ve a rough idea of what I want to do but nothing concrete,like I say I ll order the two basic sets and make it up as I go along.How about you?

[katoftw]

How about you?

Nope.  Still banging my head against a wall trying to fit in a shinkansen viaduct and commuter double line, and single freight/excursion line into a 4"x8" layout.  Have about half the track pieces I need and too many trains to run on it.

[Pauljag900]

Mmm,sounds familiar,you sound like me,always trying to fit too much into too little space.My plan is a double viaduct for bullet trains,double ground level for passenger trains then hopefully a single track built in hills for the glacier express.Hoping for 8x4 and 12x4 in an "L" shape.but you know what they say about best laid plans! Paul

[Pauljag900]

Hi everyone,as my tram layout is almost finished it's now time to start planning for the train side of things.i was just wondering if anyone has any guidance or advice regarding tomix or kato as a choice for the trains.i m definately using kato track,viaduct and ground level.I ve done a bit of research and there does nt seem to be much in it regarding one being better than the other,except I ve read in a couple of places that the motors in tomix trains seem to be better than kato and I was just wondering if that s correct?,paul

[railsquid]

I don't think there's much difference between the two really. Comparied to British N-gauge they're both miles ahead in terms of reliability and performance. I've acquired two Tomix models which were less than satisfactory for various reasons, but nothing which would put me off Tomix in general. The one mild niggle I have with Tomix is that their trains actually go too damn fast - great for Shinkansens maybe, but it's a bit ridiculous having a 1-car diesel with the same performance characteristics.

[Pauljag900]

Ha ha,not a massive problem tho,I kinda guessed that was the response I d get,the general opinion seems to be that there s not a great diference,I more or less know which trains I want but just want to be sure I buy the right ones regarding manufacturer.Not only are they way ahead of the English stuff,they re half the price!

[kvp]

 

The one mild niggle I have with Tomix is that their trains actually go too damn fast - great for Shinkansens maybe, but it's a bit ridiculous having a 1-car diesel with the same performance characteristics.

The reason is that Tomix controllers are 12V PWM, while Kato is 0-16V pulsed DC. With pulse width modulation, you can make a 40 year old 3 pole motor crawl, while pulsed DC is only effective from a certain starting voltage. So Tomix motors are not designed to be faster, they are designed for a lower voltage and smoother controller. Not to mention the train collection controllers are actually 9V only, so the intended top speed is almost half of what you get with a Kato controller. It's also important to mention that Kato motors tolerate 16V, while Tomix and especially Tomytec motors don't, so running them on higher voltages will make them go too fast and also damage them.

[Pauljag900]

Cheers mate,I ll bear that in mind,paul

[NJHA]

Hi everyone,as my tram layout is almost finished it's now time to start planning for the train side of things.i was just wondering if anyone has any guidance or advice regarding tomix or kato as a choice for the trains.i m definately using kato track,viaduct and ground level.I ve done a bit of research and there does nt seem to be much in it regarding one being better than the other,except I ve read in a couple of places that the motors in tomix trains seem to be better than kato and I was just wondering if that s correct?,paul

About kato vs tomix. 

 

I have kato track but if it was today i would go tomix. Reason? Simple. A few days ago i was looking for viaduct (without track) for my ground tracks. I may have searched wrong but i couldn't find any from Kato. From tomix i believe i located a few viaduct only pieces. Also the stations from tomix seem more versatile as they can grow 1 section at a time, while kato "forces" you to buy expansion packs. This is from what i researched so keep in mind that I may have missed options or misunderstood offers. 

One thing is for sure though. In terms of track choice, Tomix has a few more options to pick from. 

[katoftw]

Kato has viaduct only pieces.  They come in 2 packs.  Concrete tie and slab track. All Tomix viaduct stuff comes in 2 packs also. http://www.1999.co.jp/search_e.asp?Typ1_c=104&scope=0&scope2=0&itkey=kato+viaduct

 

Kato also allows you to expand the station one section at a time.  248mm each time if you like.  No different from Tomix, just Tomix give you enough to expand 280 each time, 2x 140mm. http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003185

 

I think you have searched incorrectly.

 

Tomix does have alot more concrete tie ground pieces available.  But their stations look like bum.  Find whichever works for your layout.

[cteno4]

I think what NJHA was looking for was just the viaduct without any track in it. Tomix does have the station bits that are roughly this. Kato's plate/wall sections work in a similar fashion, but are wider than the double viaduct track sections.

 

Jeff

[railsquid]

The reason is that Tomix controllers are 12V PWM, while Kato is 0-16V pulsed DC. With pulse width modulation, you can make a 40 year old 3 pole motor crawl, while pulsed DC is only effective from a certain starting voltage. So Tomix motors are not designed to be faster, they are designed for a lower voltage and smoother controller. Not to mention the train collection controllers are actually 9V only, so the intended top speed is almost half of what you get with a Kato controller. It's also important to mention that Kato motors tolerate 16V, while Tomix and especially Tomytec motors don't, so running them on higher voltages will make them go too fast and also damage them.

 

Interesting, didn't know that.

 

FWIW the Kato controller is the standard unit with 12V DC output; the Tomix instruction sheets say not to run their locomotives on "other manufacturer's units whicho output more than 12V DC".

[NJHA]

You didn't understand what i wrote katoftw. I know Kato has viaduct pieces but their pieces come with track. I wanted viaduct without track, just the viaduct, and that is what i couldn't find, and on the hs link I see none of it. As for tomix, they have viaduct pieces with and without track. 

[kvp]

 

FWIW the Kato controller is the standard unit with 12V DC output; the Tomix instruction sheets say not to run their locomotives on "other manufacturer's units whicho output more than 12V DC".

The Kato controller outputs 12V at the start of the red strip. It outputs around 16V on the end of the scale. This is way too much for Tomix motors, but tolerated well by most Kato motors and that is required for european trains made by Kato that will be probably run with higher voltage european controllers. This limitation should be taken into consideration when DCC-ing. Running the Tomix motors on a DCC voltage above 14V can harm them. (at 14V they get around 12V PWM on the motor contacts, at the common 16V or 18V DCC voltage they get 14V and 16V, which is above their voltage range) A problem happens when using Tomix and Kato shinkansen and other high speed trains mixed on a DCC system, with the 14V DCC voltage, the Kato units are too slow, but increasing it burns the Tomix motors. Fortunately the european FREMO standard specified 12 to 14V as DCC track voltage in N scale, which is ok as long as you don't have a Kato made high speed train or don't want to go fast.

[railsquid]

Interesting, thanks. On the Kato controller the Tomix trains would fly off the track before they hit the red zone and fast running is really not my thing, so should be safe. And I've abandonded all hope of DCC anyway.

[Ochanomizu]

The reason is that Tomix controllers are 12V PWM, while Kato is 0-16V pulsed DC. With pulse width modulation, you can make a 40 year old 3 pole motor crawl, while pulsed DC is only effective from a certain starting voltage. So Tomix motors are not designed to be faster, they are designed for a lower voltage and smoother controller. Not to mention the train collection controllers are actually 9V only, so the intended top speed is almost half of what you get with a Kato controller. It's also important to mention that Kato motors tolerate 16V, while Tomix and especially Tomytec motors don't, so running them on higher voltages will make them go too fast and also damage them.

 

Hello Mr kvp,

 

So sorry, but I am curious to know where this information comes from.  I have never heard of a Tomix motor being burned out on a Kato Controller.

[Ochanomizu]

The Kato controller outputs 12V at the start of the red strip. It outputs around 16V on the end of the scale. This is way too much for Tomix motors, but tolerated well by most Kato motors and that is required for european trains made by Kato that will be probably run with higher voltage european controllers. This limitation should be taken into consideration when DCC-ing. Running the Tomix motors on a DCC voltage above 14V can harm them. (at 14V they get around 12V PWM on the motor contacts, at the common 16V or 18V DCC voltage they get 14V and 16V, which is above their voltage range) A problem happens when using Tomix and Kato shinkansen and other high speed trains mixed on a DCC system, with the 14V DCC voltage, the Kato units are too slow, but increasing it burns the Tomix motors. Fortunately the european FREMO standard specified 12 to 14V as DCC track voltage in N scale, which is ok as long as you don't have a Kato made high speed train or don't want to go fast.

 

Hello again Mr kvp,

 

So sorry, but where is it written that the Kato controller outputs more than 12v DC?  Mine is measuring 12.13v at maximum.  The specification says 12v DC. http://www.katomodels.com/product/nmi/power_pack_standard_s.shtml

[Pauljag900]

I should be ok either way,I ve made my mind up on the track and it's kato for me.I shall be purchasing the basic set m1 which has a controller with it which I m going to use on a single loop but it also gives me the chance to use it for point operation.The other 4 loops I intend to use I will power from my controllers which I already have,they have full or half power switches and also high / low frequency,so can be used for high or low speed running,and like railsqiud at this moment in time I ve no intention of running with dcc so they re perfect for my needs.paul

[katoftw]

You didn't understand what i wrote katoftw. I know Kato has viaduct pieces but their pieces come with track. I wanted viaduct without track, just the viaduct, and that is what i couldn't find, and on the hs link I see none of it. As for tomix, they have viaduct pieces with and without track. 

That is actually what I originally thought you meant, but thought I must have read it wrong.

 

Why would you want a viaduct without track?  Other than adding 62mm of wall to the 310mm double crossing.  I cannot think of any reason.  but then you just get a 62mm viduct section and unscrew the track and use the viaduct piece.

 

I had a look for Tomix viaduct only pieces.  Couldn't find any.

Edited January 12, 2015 by katoftw