British N Scale resources and manufacturers

[cteno4]

Here is the article where the chap has the black gunk analyzed to discover its metal oxide and look into how it is probably formed.

 

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/mrhpub.com/2019-05-may/online/index.html?page=9

 

we have been using the crc and wd40 contact cleaners listed here and also a similar high end audio contact cleaners with similar properties. They work wonderfully. It explains why all the oil based techniques worked but of course left the rails very slick and may have given some resistance as well. I know after like 20 years using isopropanol the more you would use at times the more black gunk showed up, viscous circle that has gone away using the low dielectric cleaners.

 

track cleaning was just a dark magic/religious thing in the past and most of it not based on any real science. This is the first time ive seen someone try applying science.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[kusojiji]

I know, right? I saw Ron's Trains and things review on this subject and it seemed like I knew nothing. That's why I started using no-ox-id a special. I watch OOBill and he uses the WD40 contact cleaner on the locos. It looks like there are now at least 2 endorsements. I will try to find this stuff as taking the loco down to component level is a PITA and the air pressure might be good to blow out some of the cr@p.  Ssshhh, but I have been using mineral spirits or 100% IPA on the rails.

 

What I have been noticing is that since i run 4mm and 2mm rails side by side, my 4mm stuff has been getting fouled up much quicker than my 2mm rails. I run them the same with locos and freight. I start seeing my 4mm locos start losing connectivity while my 2mm is going fine. I don't lube my 2mm stuff like the rtr 4mm locos that I have been buying lately, which seem to have a couple of gallons of oil in each. I see black splotches on my 4mm rails and am thinking that it is all that oil and grease that they require to run. Never  had this issue when I was running Kato locos only. The UK stuff that I have bought require a lot of grease and oil or they start making grinding noises. I think these are leaving me presents all over the place.

 

I have been running my cleaning cars at least twice a week with a lot off junk being picked up. The vacuum car gets run 3 times a day. I clean the wheels of my locos at the end of the day so that they have no excuse.

 

Appreciate the info!

 

 

[kusojiji]

I just re-watched Ron's Trains and Things and yep, he quotes that article. I can get the WD40 contact cleaner out here. The CRC doesn't seem they use the same things or maybe they just call it something else. Since the article is very specific, I'm not going to try the other CRC cleaners.

 

I also saw that the article mentions the La Mesa club. I used to live there back in 2007 and went there a couple of times. Huge place. Clicked on the link to the San Diego railroad museum and it is a dead link (or maybe blocked?). I hope they are still afloat.

[cteno4]

Yes its nice to see some real science appear and its dramatically worked for us and none of the other issues you see with things like steering fluid, clipper oil, etc with traction or orange oils that can soften traction tires. 

 

We use to think it was from mainly oil from folks lubing their trains too much. Some folks will pour the oil onto their trains when you want to use minimal drops with a watch oiler rod and run and apply some more a few times. This gets a nice even coat and not a lot of excess. Have you looked at using something like nano-oil? It’s a lubricant that uses little carbon buckyballs as its real lubricant. You use tiny amounts and it works well in cranky places like drive rods and such that usually muck up with oil easily. It’s also used now in a lot of guns as well and an ex law enforcement friend now swears by it as he has to use so little and not having to keep excess gun oil cleaned out of things all the time that will easily pick up grit and then cause issues. There are also some teflon treatments for plastic gears but it’s a pretty involved process that requires complete disassembly of gears to do and testing on the gear plastic as well to tolerate the process. Ive recently started using the nano oil and i am liking it. Tiny amounts goes a very long way, which is true for the usual train oils but nano much less still.

 

But really most all that black gunk is probably just metal oxides from the micro arcing. We went thru horrendous loops at times cleaning hard with isopropanol only to have more black gunk so more cleaning so more black gunk, more cleaning, repeat!

 

Many no-ox stuff work in the same way helping put down a low dielectric layer so that water and other high dielectric molecules cant be on the metal itself and cause oxidation. But some of the no-ox thing meant to exclude water on things like battery terminals to help reduce oxidation can be quite slick and thus cause a loss of traction.

 

Interesting the 4mm usually has more black gunk than the 2mm. But 4mm will have 4x the surface area [double the size you quadruple the area] to have micro arcing to occur on versus 2mm and higher voltages so it makes sense it could generate much more black oxide gunk.

 

Ive been talking to more and more folks that have been happy with the wd40 contact cleaner. I just spray some on a piece of rag and swipe with my finger, its the best tool to get at track, but in some places like bridges and such you need to do the rag on a stick thing.

 

jeff

[kusojiji]

I have been using labelle 102, 108, and 106. I do 1 drop on the bearings and use a whittled down toothpick for the side rods. I then try to wick some of it off after. I recently bought Bachmann conductive oil for the bearing pick up types. It has a very fine needle applicator that I like.

 

I watch those guys that repair locos and they say use sparingly, but put a couple of worms on their worms! 

 

I find black spots on my rails once in a while. If a loco stalls, I investigate the rail and sometimes find a black spot there. Kinda like a garage floor...

 

Have you tried to clean a loco's innards with the contact cleaner? I watched thiswayworks' Dapol pannier cleaning and that's a lot of fine detail just waiting to break off. If there's a simpler solution, I'm all for it. I don't know if I'm going to be willing to take my Dapol terrier apart again.

 

Took a look at the nano-oil. Which one for n scale? There are a few selections. Willing to give it a try... oh, just noticed the price - holy smokes! Must be good.

[kusojiji]

Clicked on the link in  your sig. Wow! The details and intricasies on those layouts. Yeah, you really need to have a cleaner that works and can get into those tight spots.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Seeing your videos on RMWeb (probably the best place to ask about these locos), there is a distinct waddle going on. I wonder if it is something like the coupling rods are a little tight. Initially I would very lightly oil all of the rod connecting pins to the wheels and then leave it running on a circuit for 10 minutes to see if that evens itself out. It could also be that one of the rods has been slightly knocked and one of the wheels are a little out of alignment.

[kusojiji]

Hi, I checked the rods for tightness at all throws. I also checked for any loose wheels. The wheels are definitely out of axes. Since they are on square axles, I briefly contemplated on pulling them off, but that I stopped that thought as I'm tired of eating these things. I sent an email to Rails and will be sending back. Shipping is much cheaper than expected at around 8 GBP. Still need to get it to the post office and then the fun and game start as we try to communicate. It did improve as it ran as it was horrendous out of the box. My heart sank when I saw the wheels turning.

 

Rails said they test all models going overseas, but I have received 3 of 9 with wonk. I will ensure to put that request to test in every order from now on. Kernow also rogered up and said that they can do it.

 

Yeah, I wish I could post video here... I couldn't get a video of the wheels as it's too small and my iphone is too unwieldy. I have a tripod for it, but the angle would have been too extreme for it.

 

Thanks!

Edited Sunday at 09:58 AM by kusojiji

[cteno4]

Yes ive used the labells series as well for many decades. Also silione grease on some worm gears that need a thicker grease and not lube well with just a heavy oil. I think ive had my current bottles of labells for like 20 years now, thats how little i tend to use in a lubing. Over the years realizing more oil means more splattered about  and it just creates more pickup of dust and smutz into drive chains making a real mess. I use a watch maker’s oiler that imparts a little tiny bit at a time of oil. I use to use toothpick ends but moved to the watchmaker’s oiler after talking to a friend that makes clocks as a hobby and love them. I apply a little and run for a minute and see how it does and listen. Then repeat until sounding and running really smoothly.

 

If its really black its probably metal oxide a may be mixed with other stuff. The labells ive never seen turn black on their own with just use.

 

the metal oxide deposits are probably just from micro arcs leaving little patches on the track. I could see the wobbly train leaving it in patches like that with the wheel lifting off consistently and having moments where it can arc more.

 

on the innards i usually use water with some detergent to clean gears and such but pulling the big pieces out [i dont pull the gears off shafts, etc] and put them in little condiment containers with some water/detergent and float it in the ultrasonic bath. Then dump the iso and spritz with some distilled water in a little baby squirt botttle and repeat until there is not a lot of black popping out during the ultrasound bath. Then follow with a 95 iso ultrasound to push out water and easily dry it all.

 

I use to plunk whole trucks into baths like this but now im not as it puts isopropanol all over the contact surface. Instead it just clean the wheel sets then after all dry clean the surfaces the contacts wipe on the wheels with some contact cleaner on a small makeup applicator as well as clean the contact points.

 

Luckily as we have shifted to the contact cleaner on the track ive done less and less interior cleaning as well.

 

yes the nano lube is expensive. But you will use a tube forever so not like every month or year buying another! So far im happy with it.

 

I got the 3 pack with the 5,10, and 85. 5 is for stuff you really need good penetration and cant get at easily. 10 is for motor bearings and rod connections. 85 is for gears. I am a tad more liberal with the nanotube as the penetrant eventually evaporates off a just leaves the buckyballs behind. Ive not noticed much of any residue after using nanotube. 

 

Cheers

 

jeff

 

[kusojiji]

Hi Jeff,

 

We do about the same thing. I use Dawn and warm water and just plunk the chassis, sans motor, into it. I don't have an ultrasonic (yet?), but it looks like a good to have. Break out the toothbrush and go to town. I'm getting a bit leary of the ipa though as it turned my n-terrier a little bit white. I guess it reacted with something that was still there. I'll use the contact cleaner aerosol to blow it out.

 

Yep, my labelle's may be of the same vintage 🙂

 

My contact cleaner just showed up, so will start using that on my electronics as well. Corrosion is high with the humidity (usb connectors etc).

 

Ok, sold on the nano lube! Thanks for the info on the application.

[cteno4]

Yes ive keep the iso only to trucks and interior parts, it can really go at many paints and even plastics. 

 

A simple like $20-30 ultrasonic bath can work miracles on cleaning and also stripping paints as well, it can get stuff out of cracks so well that brushing cant do!

 

the contact cleaners also are good at just arresting regular oxidation from humidity and such as well as the micro arcing so great all around. Its specifically what they were made for keeping contact surfaces clean in the long run from oxidation of all sorts.

 

Cool on the nano lube, I’ll have to email him for my commission now! Just kidding! Hope it helps reduce the oil in your 4mm stuff. 

 

Keep us posted on all of this as more data is always great to have!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[kusojiji]

OK, order placed. He asked how I heard about him and I told him from you. Mentioned the Japan Rail Modelers club and this forum. Hope he gives you some loving.

 

Been using the contact cleaner. Man this stuff evaporates quickly! Guess I won't be using it with my CMX cleaner car! haha Did the manual spray on the Scott's towel and went around the room and cleaned the tracks last night.

 

So, planning to wash my locos, use the contact cleaner to help dry and clean, and nano-oil to lube. Looking forward to getting rid of the parking garage symptoms!

[cteno4]

LOL i have talked with the nano lube chap a couple of times about the product, i dont think i mentioned about club or forum though. He seems to be a small one hand clapping setup so not a big company. He was responsive to some questions i had. Probably could have gotten away with the 10 and 85 but it was on a small sale then for the all three and i think only a few dollars more than just the two so i got it. I enjoy supporting small, innovative [real innovation making something work better not just different that everyone slaps the innovation label on now days] companies. Clock maker friend really opened my eyes to minimal lubing, especially as things get smaller, hence my quest to applying less labels and then moving to buckyballs.

 

yes that is the down side of the contact cleaners they do then to evaporate fast. Luckily i think the compounds that are the active bits for the track are non volatile, so even though the carrier/penetrant may evaporate fast the good bits probably last for a bit on the rag. But yes I generally walk around with the can and small spritzes into a rag every like 4 or 6 ttrak modules. Also dont need a ton of it once the tracks are cleaner either. Again this is where similar low dielectric oils were sucessful in stopping the black gunk, but their applications were usually way too much and so much excess that would not wipe away easily and not evaporate and cause slippage and eventually end up sucking up dust.

 

This Weekend at the cherry blossom festival i checked the tracks and they were very clean from the last show where we did one quick cleaning. I noticed no stutters or big headlight flickers at all. I did notice a couple of my trains that have gotten heavy use at shows the last few years probably can do with a little cleaning and nanotube love.

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

 

[kusojiji]

I've heard that Washington DC has the largest single area of Cherry Blossoms. I hope you had awesome weather for the viewing. In Japan, we get nice weather, they bloom, and then we get torrential rain and hurricane winds. We end up with a nice cherry blossom carpet. Happens all the time.

 

Anyway, I took both of my Accurascale P class locos apart since I've been having major issues with quartering, stuttering, gasping and coughing. I had not figured out the post office thing out here, so have been eating these locos instead of sending back for replacement. GF 08 is dead, Terrier was a lot of work, Hawthorne Leslie was a custom wiper pick up install... anyway, a lot of work to get them to work. I bought two P class and the first thing is the Blue Bell locking up immediately. I fixed it by turning one of the wheels to get it close. Ran them both for a couple of days and then the stuttering and dying started. It's been a few months now, working with Accurascale and they're nice enough to help by sending replacement wheels.

 

SOB story over. I took one of them apart down to nuts and bolts, washed the chassis with the gears in dawn and warm water. Flushed the chassis, wheels, nuts and motor out with the contact cleaner. It made everything cold and made my hands white. Anyway that stuff worked like a charm. Checked the quartering again and made a fine adjustment, put the motor back together with the brushes, swapped polarity on the motor and rotated the pick ups so that she would run fwd on DCC (ran fine on DC), did all this without having all that grease all over. Relubed and now she's running smoothly. Has been for 5 hours so far. One thing that I noticed is that the bearings would get stuck. This loco has a sprung axle (don't remember which end), but I didn't notice it moving before. That may have been the issue with the stuttering and dying. Now that everything has been cleaned out, all bearings are free and the wheels follow the terrain.

 

I drink to your health Sir!

I drink to your wealth!

I drink to you happiness!

I drin tyer car!

i jink you cat!

aargghhh!!

 

🙂

Edited Tuesday at 11:14 AM by kusojiji

[cteno4]

Yes we have a lot of cherry blossoms all over DC. The ones down on the tidal basin were a gift from Japan over 100 years ago. Its it quite a site when they all pop and weather holds. Draws very big crowds and I dont go down anymore as it just gets too crazy. We have 4 weeks of events in march/april for the national cherry blossom festival. Lots of institutions do some sort of cherry blossom event. This year we were invited to 4, but could only do 2 of them. The capper is the big Sakura Matsuri down on Pennsylvania ave between the White House and capital. Big event with like 45k coming in. It use to be like 125K when it was a ll free and open but now due to security they need to fence it all off and charge admission then to cover the security costs! 

 

But we have a lot of cherry and apple trees blossoming all around here as it’s become a big thing. Couple of streets near us cherry trees arc almost all the way over the street and its quite the site when they go off. I should have tried to get some pictures this spring. We get the same things here with wind and or rain storms sometimes wiping them out fast. I think what ever was left was taken out by a good rain storm last night and high winds today.

 

good to hear the engine is back working again! Sometimes they just need that full breakdown and clean out and get everyting back in perfect alignment. Its a PITA, but usually works.

 

Cheers

 

jeff