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Innotrans 2022


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Giugiaro

I'm planning to go to the 2022 edition of Innotrans, at Messe Berlin between the 20th and 23rd of Steptember.

 

It's been four years since the last edition so there's a lot of expectations for this year's event.

The Hostel is already booked, and I'm just missing flights (which are currently overpriced).

 

Hope J-TREC and PKP are in the venue this year, as I need to talk with them for work purposes. 

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Nice. I was going to ask if you could go by train but it seems that route takes two days! Even in Japan the distance would take about 10 hours by shinkansen.

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disturbman

That kind of long-haul intercontinental rail journeys in Europe are very difficult and slow to do. Even more when you are going to or from Berlin, it’s slightly out of the way and the German HSR network is piecemeal, and not very efficient; and the French is Paris centric, doing a Spain to Germany would most likely require a station change in Paris. Portugal is even less accessible.

 

Last time I did a Paris-Berlin by HSR, it took 8/9hrs and required two changes in Germany.

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Giugiaro
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, mojo said:

I was going to ask if you could go by train but it seems that route takes two days!

 

I could do the journey by train in our out of Berlim, but right now I don't have access to FIP coupons, nor is the Interrail worth the price.

HSR in Spain and France is ridiculous. It's like taking an airplane that never takes-off.

 

I could also fly to a nearby place and then rail in (or vice-versa) but the prices are all up everywhere, except Spain.

Edited by Giugiaro
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20 hours ago, Giugiaro said:

I'm planning to go to the 2022 edition of Innotrans, at Messe Berlin between the 20th and 23rd of Steptember.

 


Anyone else comming? We could try to organise a meetup in Berlin, no?

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Giugiaro

I decided to ditch the in-and-out flight to Berlin.
The lower prices I was following had my transfer flights at Gatwick. This option is out of the question.

Plus, the prices didn't take luggage and visas into consideration.


I saw prices already going well above 300€, leaving me in random places for half a day or overnight.

The cheapest option was to extend my stay from Sunday 18 to Saturday 24.

But I couldn't arrange accommodation at a price that would justify such an extension.

 

I decided to do the second most idiotic thing and fly in and out of Paris via TAP Air Portugal, then take a TGV/ICE overnight between Paris and Berlin.

 

Not the cheapest option, but far more interesting than wasting 16 hours of my life stuck at the EuroAirport.

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Good job you avoided Gatwick. Aside from anything else, due to staff shortages (COVID and brexit) they are cancelling a lot of flights out of there. Just to be helpful they usually cancel them the day before you are due to fly, or even closer to the departure time.

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JR East

I'm thinking of going to InnoTrans. CDG-BER as more convenient to than train. The sole drawback is the airport ... quite far away from the city & Berlin Messe. 

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disturbman

Just need to take the S45 until Südkreuz, deboard and board the next train going round the Ring, it's the same track. If you are flying from CDG, I don't see why you complain about going from BER to Messe. The airport is better connected in public transport and the trains are in better shape than the RER B. For sure, compared to Tegel, BER is further away from Messe but it's hassle free.

Edited by disturbman
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JR East
8 minutes ago, disturbman said:

Just need to take the S45 until Südkreuz, deboard and board the next train going round the Ring, it's the same track. If you are flying from CDG, I don't see why you complain about going from BER to Messe. The airport is better connected in public transport and the trains are in better shape than the RER B. For sure, compared to Tegel, BER is further away from Messe but it's hassle free.

I'm not complaining at all, looking to the map it looks like far away. 

 

RER B ... no comment. 

 

JM

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Giugiaro

Dear God...

 

I have to take RER B to go from Orly to Gare de l'Est!

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disturbman

Usually the RATP/southern part is fine-ish, or at least it used to. They are more issues north of Châtelet/Gare du Nord. But that might have changed, the line has been increasingly overcrowded and fragile.

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JR East
2 hours ago, disturbman said:

Usually the RATP/southern part is fine-ish, or at least it used to. They are more issues north of Châtelet/Gare du Nord. But that might have changed, the line has been increasingly overcrowded and fragile.

My 4-years long experience 2010-2014 (leaving home sunday late afternoon, back to Vincennes on Friday, leaving Dusseldorf at 16:00) with RER B from Chatelet to CDG is quite hectic. 

Direct Gare du Nord / Parc des Expositions / CDG is convenient but as soon as there is a problem, it's a nightmare. Despite it's a direct train, bypassing a train stuck for any reason is not really possible. Usually, Sunday's trains were more reliable.

 

What was the real nightmare were the Fridays. Landing around 17:30 then boarding train around 18:15/18:30. There were always issues on the RER B with always the same root causes : rolling stock 'incidents' (failures), tracks / signals failures and  passengers issues or accident. strike were not the real issue (as frequently, you're just late with a connection at Gare du Nord). 

 

Arriving or leaving Düsseldorf was really easy with a reliable "Düsseldorf Flughafen Schwebebahn" from the airport to the railway station

 

 

then a reliable S-Bahn to the main station (at that time, there was also a Veolia train and an ICE stopping at the airport station then the main station).

There is also at Term.1 a S-Bahn station.

Depending on the scheduling, one or the other was the best option. 

 

 

 

JM

 

Edited by JR East
typos
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disturbman

I love the MI79/84 and wish someone will make a N scale model of it, but they have reached the end of the line. For the rest, upgrading is going on but progress is slow. The RER B will probably won't be better until the new rolling-stock and automatism of the central section are ready.

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Giugiaro
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, disturbman said:

But that might have changed, the line has been increasingly overcrowded and fragile.

 

I've been concerned by the ICE connection as well. Punctuality of long range German trains has gone down the drain since the start of the year, to the point that SBB decided to cancel some ICE services within Swizterland to increase service stability.

 

You know your service is unreliable when the Swiss tell you to get out of their country 😨

Edited by Giugiaro
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Nick_Burman
On 6/20/2022 at 4:53 PM, disturbman said:

Portugal is even less accessible.

 

The only long distance connection between Portugal and Spain was the "Lusitania" which was suspended during COVID and not resumed. If you really want to ride by rail today you first have to catch an Inter-City from Madrid to Badajoz, then change to a twice-daily CP railcar which will slowly bounce you to Abrantes and Entroncamento, from where you can catch another Inter-City train to Lisbon, all going well. Or, alternatively, travel the long way round via Vigo, then via the Vigo-Oporto IC.

 

Cheers Nicholas

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Giugiaro

So, right now, the plan is finalised.

 

In the early morning of September 18, I'll be flying on TAP Air Portugal from Porto to Paris - Orly. I'll be staying in Paris up until the end of the day. I'm probably going to take some time to check Paris - Chatelet Les Halles to see if this station would be appropriate for the future Sud Express.

 

By sunset, I'll take the ICE bound for Frankfurt Hbf, where I'll change to another ICE towards Hannover Hbf.
A two-hour wait leaves me in another ICE for Berlin Hbf, arriving very early in the morning of September 19.

 

I'll take the chance to visit one or two modellbahnshops, and as soon as I check in at the hostel, I'll take the afternoon to rest.

 

Between September 20 and 23, it's Innotrans time!

 

On the early night of September 23, I'll take the ICE back home, departing from Berlin Hbf towards Stuttgart Hbf.
I'll have another 2-hour change at Stuttgart to a TGV bound for Paris Est, where I'll arrive late in the morning.

 

At the end of tea time in Paris, I'll be boarding the TAP Air Portugal flight back to Porto in time to spend the Sunday resting at home before returning to work.

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disturbman

 

15 minutes ago, Giugiaro said:

I'm probably going to take some time to check Paris - Chatelet Les Halles to see if this station would be appropriate for the future Sud Express.

 

Confusing with another station perhaps? Chatelet was never intended as anything else than a RER station. Anything traveling along the Atlantic coast should arrive at Paris-Montparnasse.

Edited by disturbman
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Giugiaro

It depends @disturbman

 

If the train is going to terminate at Paris, it may as well do so at Montparnasse.

 

But if the train eventually is further extended wouldn't it be better to call at a through station at the heart of the city?

The rationale is still being worked on by the railway company, but the general idea is that the Sud will be a night+intercity train.

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disturbman

Ideally, yes. But that’s not how Paris railway network is built. Only the RER lines go through Chatelet.

 

Long distance and IC traffic always terminate at one of the five main stations. Alternatively, some trains (a few TGVs) go around the Grande Ceinturre and the LGV Interconnexion Est to mark stops at Massy, Roissy-CDG and Marne-la-Vallée.

 

Coming from the Atlantic coast, the only way to reach Chatelet would be to go around the Grande Ceiture via Massy, pass on the tracks of the RER D between Gare de Lyon and Chatelet, take the common tunnel RER B/RER D between Chatelet and Gare du Nord, and finally rejoin general traffic north of Gare du Nord.

 

It has never been done in regular traffic and I’m not even sure it would be possible nowadays. Even more since the tunnels are in the process of being upgraded for aromatic running.

 

Your best bet is to dead end at Montparnasse before maybe marking stops at Massy and/or Roissy.

 

edit: without counting that Chatelet is not equipped to receive IC trains and I would not like to be dropped off there as a passenger.

Edited by disturbman
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JR East
50 minutes ago, disturbman said:

Ideally, yes. But that’s not how Paris railway network is built.

 

In addition to @disturbman, I would add some information. 

 

The Paris' underground is very complicated.

 

Indeed, the layer of soil between the various water tables and the surface is quite thin. The hydrology of also very complex and nobody's can pretend knowing everything on it (this lead to a major incident in 2017 whilst drilling at test pit on metro line 1, flooding RER A line and blocking the line for a couple of days if I don't mind). Even minor rivers continue to runs below the city as the famous Bièvres. 

 


Since the drilling of the stone quarries (now the catacombs), then of the sewers, then of the foundations of certain large buildings, then of the various metro lines and finally of the RER, the Parisian basement looks more like an anthill than a coherent block.

 

With the extension of line 14, new tunnels still have to pass through the existing interlacing.

 

It is therefore difficult to imagine a central station underground. The current structure around the 5 current stations (Gare de Lyon / Paris-Bercy, Gare Montparnasse, Gare Saint Lazare, Gare du Nord & Gare de l'Est) will not change in a near future.

 

RER A / B is convenient for Gare de Lyon / Gare du Nord transit (up to some extend, Gare de l'Est too, as it close to Gare du Nord by foot)

Line 14 is connected to RER A and covenient to go to Gare Saint Lazare

Gare Montparnasse is connected to the metro 

 

So the transit in general is not that painful. 

 

 

 

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Giugiaro

There's been a slight miscalculation on the journey planner.

 

My ticket from Paris to Berlin was shifted one day forwards, so now I'll be travelling on the ICE from the 19th to the 20th.

Meaning that I won't be having my free day in Berlin, but instead a whole new day in Paris... 😕

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disturbman

Paris is a nice city, maybe not the best to have to spend an unplanned night at due to cost. Hope you will find a cheap and comfortable accommodation. At least you won't have to stress about making your connection and you will have plenty of stuff to do and see.

Edited by disturbman
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Who is expecting to be at Innotrans on Friday Sept 23rd ? I'm trying to clean my business calendar to attend to this exhibition. 

 JM

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My plan for the 23rd is still intact, so we should bump into each other if that's the case.

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