France bans domestic air travel for routes with rail connections under 2h30

[disturbman]

I'm relatively intrigued by this new policy and wonder if it will become something normal in countries with developed and dependable rail systems across Europe.

I'm also curious to see how it will in effect be applicated and what the impact will be for air, rail and road traffic. Notably if people will still be able to book seats to Roissy-Charles de Gaule on connecting flights, or if those will only be intended for connecting passengers. Or if these will push the SNCF and/or open access companies to start new or strengthen existing IC relations. In any case, it should drive up demand on Paris-Region TGV relations.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/12/france-ban-some-domestic-flights-train-available-macron-climate-convention-mps

Edited April 12, 2021 by disturbman

[gavino200]

Very interesting. I wonder if other countries will follow.

[disturbman]

The big one would be if the EU follows and if the threshold is raised to higher time. Iirc, the modal share (in France) between train and air for routes under 2h30 is 92% for the train and 85% for routes between 2h30 and 3h. This share goes down to around 55% for routes between 4h and 5h.

[gavino200]

I doubt it. The EU loves incrementalism. Though I hope I'm wrong. I'd like to see a new golden age of rail. 

[disturbman]

That one started in 1981 and was orange...


...if you are French 😉

Edited April 12, 2021 by disturbman

[200系]

Actually, it started on the 1st of October 1964, the rest of the world was just a bit slow on the uptake😉

 

 

I hope we'll see similar proposals made into law in the rest of the EU, though Austria was apparently the first nation to do so, it's a good starting point, though I do hope it will be paired with further investments in the rail network in the future.

Shame the original, 4 hour, proposal didn't make it though, would've upped the effectiveness of this legislation quite considerably, but alas, additional bonus points for Air France/KLM I guess (perhaps another bonus for the CEO is in order...).

[Jaco3011]

Am I the only one here against the ban?

[chadbag]

5 hours ago, Jaco3011 said:

Am I the only one here against the ban?

 

I am not French so don't really care, but I would be against it.   The government shouldn't be picking winners and losers.  But it is not my fight.

 

[Jaco3011]

2 hours ago, chadbag said:

The government shouldn't be picking winners and losers.

Exactly.

[Sheffie]

I think “government should” is the point where it crosses the line to being political 

[cteno4]

Ok let’s not let this sprint out into a wider political discussion and keep it to the trains. Realize this is and inherently political subject regarding trains, but we need to keep it confined here.

 

thanks 

 

jeff

[JR East]

My purpose is not political

 

As I'm French, I'll tell you why I'm against this ban. 

 

First of all, this has been decided by politicians, meaning people not really working in standard working conditions / opening hours. As ministers or President or MP, they are not bound to opening hours. When they are travelling, people are waiting for them, they have a nice black car with police to open the road and enabling them to pass at red traffic lights.  For President & ministers, they are flying small business jets when it's required.

 

Now, looking (eg) to Paris - Bordeaux, where it's now ban to fly ....

 

As consultant, I'm expected to be at my customer around 09:00 up to around 18:00 (or more). If I'm not there, I'm not paid. If there is any SNCF strike, forget a 'car' fallback solution to travel from Vincennes (where I live) to Cestas (where my customer was). It's roughly 6 hours including a 15' pause. 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/JZkYczD9aD1rKZht8

 

Then now by train, option is to leave home a 06:00 to arrive at 09:30 at the gate ... meaning it's better to leave the evening before, sleeping in Cestas to be able to be at the office at 09:00 straight

Compared to plane, it's approximately the same travel duration : 3 hours (1h15 of flight + 1h15 hour to go to Orly incl. safety check) + 1/2h from Bordeaux airport to Cestas) but the early bird was convenient as well as the return flight. 

 

What is really a pity is not having the choice. For sure, if you're going from Paris downtown to Bordeaux downtown, flying is completely stupid as is a pure loss of time (esp. because you can sit in your train and work efficiently with your team, what you can't really do in a plane due to the pitch). For example, I never went to Lyon by plane, but when I was working for Airbus Helicopters, it was far more convenient to go to Marseille by plane as the customer's premise was 10 minutes away from the airport (which is far away from Marseille downtown esp Maseille station.

 

If your destination is close to the airport,it can be convenient (esp. because lots of companies have left Paris downtown to move to the northern subburb or southern subburd where office rental were cheaper. 

 

Moreover, I would like to add that French trains, esp. commuters and 'limited express' are frequently late, thus it's jeopardizing the "TER" >> "TGV" transfer unless you take a big safety margin. Another point to take into consideration is the location of the station. Some TGV stations are not downtown but out of the city (like Valence TGV). That doesn't help. 

 

On top of that, I would like to add that people are not stupid. They are taking the most convenient transport mode or the cheapest one. Having the choice is also a good option to let all these regions grow with as much transport offer as it can be. 

 

[EdF]

This network isolation is an issue in the US too.  Where I live in Richmond, Virginia, the airport is east of town and the main train station is north.  The downtown station only gets a few trains a day.  There is no connection between the airport and rail.  One route literally runs the rail line that is the southern boundary of the airport, providing a fairly east interaction point, but nope.

[JR East]

I must say, even in Paris, the path thru some station is not easy. 

 

We've 6 railway stations in Paris

 

• Gare de Lyon : Going to Lyon then Marseille (south east network)
• Gare du Nord : Going to Lille then Brussels and the Netherlands (North network)
• Gare de l'Est : Going to Strasbourg and Germany (East network)
• Gare Saint Lazare : Going to the Normandie (North west network)
• Gare Montparnasse : Going to Bretagne (West network) and Bordeaux, Toulouse etc ... (South west network)
• Gare d'Austerlitz : Going to the center of France (Chateauroux, Rodez ...)

 

Going to or from Austerlitz by metro (subway) is a nightmare as you must clim stairs with your luggages. For Motparnasse, it's worst, you've endless corridors and tunnels with some stairs sometimes. The other stations are more convenient with mechanical stairs and light slopes. 

 

For our 'Low Cost' TGV, there is also a dedicated stations in Marne La Vallée - Chessy, far away of Paris downtown in the east subburb. You can reach it by the commuter, but it takes roughly 45 minutes from the center of Paris and it's really a low cost station. 

 

there is also a station for connecting TGV & planes at Roissy Charles de Gaulle airport (north of Paris). This one is very convienient for people arriving in France as the TGV doesnt enter Paris and go directly to Lille (North), Lyon / Marseille (South East) etc ... but the freqency is not high. If your plane is delayed for any reason, depending on the scheduling, you are spedning hours in the waiting room. 

 

There is no ideal solution. I must recognize that the TGV is convenient. You can go from Paris to Marseille (770 km)  in roughly 3 hours which is great. When I was working for Amtrak in New York, I remember spending more than 1h30 to go to Philadelphia for # 160km which is mad (1 hour with the Acela Express, but it cost far more).

[Cat]

Oof, Paris is even worse than Boston.  We have North Station and South Station, and well over a century of discussions about whether or not or how to link them by rail.  And with our subway dating back to 1897 a number of junctions with twisty tunnels and stairways connecting various lines — the worst being trying to get onto the Blue Line out to Logan Airport if you're carrying any luggage.
 
And yeah, the cost and travel times for rail travel between cities here is just nuts.

[Jaco3011]

USA works under different rules - everything is either close enough to make a drive or far enough to take a plane.

Poland has no problem with those - we have no HSR (is 200km/h HSR?), domestic flights aren't popular (I think we have those, do we?), long distance travel is done by rail or car, coaches aren't that good for a long journey.

 

Tokyo Monorail has two stations on one of the airports, I don't remember whether it's Haneda or Narita. Same with Keikyu.

 

 

The main thing is that I want cool stuff: on rails, on roads and in the air. Pop-up headlights were banned in Europe in 1995, due to new regulations prices of IV gen Mazda MX-5 went up, Tatra gave up their V12 engine from Tatra 813 when Czech Republic joined the EU...

[katoftw]

3 hours ago, Jaco3011 said:

Pop-up headlights were banned in Europe in 1995, due to new regulations prices of IV gen Mazda MX-5 went up, 

An NA6 MX5 from 1989 would always be cheaper than a NB8 MX5 from 1997.

 

8 years of inflation and more mod cons does that. Govt regulations about pedrestian safety didnt make the pricing go up.

[Jaco3011]

9 hours ago, katoftw said:

An NA6 MX5 from 1989 would always be cheaper than a NB8 MX5 from 1997.

 

8 years of inflation and more mod cons does that. Govt regulations about pedrestian safety didnt make the pricing go up.

 

In January 2021 prices of brand new MX-5 ND went up, because the penalty for Mazda is included in the price.

[katoftw]

Prices of cars go up every year. What does it have to do with a 1995 govt legistration change for automobile design.

[Jaco3011]

11 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Prices of cars go up every year. What does it have to do with a 1995 govt legistration change for automobile design.

The 1995 was for pop-ups, the 2021 was for emission standards.

[cteno4]

Ok back to trains please.

 

jeff