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Kamome442

Yūrakuchō

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Kamome442

Hi Drunkenclam,

 

Thank you very much. It is so strange you should mention Harajuku, that is the station I was originally going to model. It is such a beautiful station and the Imperial Platform makes it truly unique. I decided to change when I started converting trains to 7.1mm, mainly because there is a set of points in front of the station (at the time I didn't feel confident enough to have hand built points on scene) and I felt having Shinkansen lines would help emphasis the different gauges. I would still love to attempt it one day however it would not be small!

 

There will be curved boards at each end to bring the tracks around to the fiddle yard. At the moment I am still not 100% sure how I am going to do it. I might actually post a couple of options and ask the forum for advise. My current thinking is something like this: 

1670748102_Screenshot2020-07-04at21_11_50.thumb.png.8a95cb698b3b63d78cdd76d966835eb0.png

 

Joe

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Claude_Dreyfus

I suppose the main factor for working out the return curve radius will be how many people you will need to operate the layout (fitting in the operating well), as well as size of fiddle yard. Apologies if I am stating the obvious here and my rambling below!

 

Certainly the Shinkansen, and to an extent the Tokaido main line lend themselves to automatic operation (DC or DCC), with the suburban line automation also achievable with the station stop, so in theory your operator numbers at shows are governed by the logistics of erecting and dismantling. 

 

How many fiddle yard tracks on each circuit are you planning? I saw your comments about not being confident with making points for the 3'6" tracks, but suspect you would need at least one loop per track circuit, if for no other reason than to give a train a rest. Some of my stock I used on a previous 16' exhibition layout had to work hard at shows, especially if some of the operators weren't feeling adventurous and a train did multiple circuits. 40 circuits over a weekend (easily achievable) equates to quarter of a mile(!). Some of my Chuo line workhorses have literally done (real) miles in their careers.

 

On your mock up, it looks like the Shinkansen is the inner circuit, so not only will that take the brunt of the wear on the tightest radius curves, but also they will require a wider radius curve than the more conventional units, such as the E231s, which will affect the width for your return boards. They will also be the inner lines of the fiddle yard from the operating well, so if you plan to swap the trains on the Tokaido and local lines, you'll be reaching over the Shinkansen. You may also need to look at track levels in the fiddle yard - the Shinkansen on the plan is slightly higher level, but for ease of access in the yard will probably need to be the lowest level.

 

I was planning a similar type urban layout for a few years (although not the correct gauge, which will be very impressive), and came across all of these things when looking at the fiddle yard design. Still thinking about it, but limited space and lots of other ideas always seem to hamper my grand plans!

 

As I said, you may know this already, but hopefully something in these musings may be beneficial.  

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Kamome442
Posted (edited)

Hi Claude, please don't apologise any advice is more than welcome. 

 

It will be DCC operation and my aim will be to eventually automate, if not all, as much of the layout as possible. I want to follow the actual timetable so I am currently reading up on computer controlled operation. Ideally I would like to pre program a sequence that could be replayed at exhibitions. I have PDF's of the October 2019 to March 2020 timetables. There are a lot of trains during peak times, the busiest time, 8-9 am, has 156 trains pass through this section. I would love to model that!

I am working my way through the timetables to work out how many of each train I am likely to need. 

 

The Shinkansen and Tokaido lines will be simple loops always returning the their starting point. The suburban lines are a little more complex as the Yamanote runs inside the Keihin line. My current thinking is to run them as end to end with the Keihin lines running either side of the Yamanote sidings before merging and terminating. 

 

As for points go I am more than happy to make as many as needed in the fiddle yard, it doesn't matter how janky they look (as long as they work) only I will see them. The work load for each train is a big concern. Running suburban lines end to end would reduce the distance they have to travel. I think I will need at least 6 (possibly 8) train sets for the Yamanote and the same for the Keihin. With 3-4 at either end swapping places a couple of times before having a rest. An added complication with the full 1K set up is that it is reaching the length where you could have two trains on the same track (one entering the layout while the other is leaving).

 

The Shinkansen is on the inside and will be important in determining the minimum radius, one bonus is that they are not running fast through the area modelled. They are about 1 cm higher than the other lines at one end however with the distance I have it should be pretty easy to bring them back down off scene.

 

It is a massive challenge however you look at it. 

 

Joe

 

Edited by Kamome442
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Drunkenclam
Posted (edited)

The good thing about the Yamanote line is. Every so often they have a special livery or advertising. So you can have one that would break up the fleet. Of course. It also depends on what era/decade you are modelling.

Edited by Drunkenclam

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Kamome442
Posted (edited)

That is very true. The era is a little contentious. My plan has always been to model 2019 to 2020. I was there in 2019 and 2020 would have the Olympics. I wanted to try and get the 'Olympic Games 500 days to go' advertising from Densha.me to put on some of the Yamanote and Keihin trains. I was also going to model the large advert for the games on one of the buildings behind the station. At the moment the idea leaves me feeling cold, the year hasn't been great and it would be insensitive to make too much of it.

 

Another reason was that it offered lots of variety with recent changes:

E235 Series replacing E231-500 series (Yamanote line), 700 series Retired (Tokaido Shinkansen), E257-200 Series  replacing 185 Series (Odoriko service), E261 Series (Saphir Odoriko) replacing 251 Series (Superview Odoriko), 6 car E259 Series retired (Marine Odoriko), N700S series Introduced (Tokaido Shinkansen)

 

I wanted to run the older versions at the start of the day and slowly introduce their replacements through out the day.

 

With the possibility that there might be new stock for the Keihin-Tohoku Line coming around 2024, I may expand the time period to around 5-6 years, 2019-2024/5

 

Edited by Kamome442

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Kamome442
Posted (edited)

Claude, as requested, here is how I convert the trains.

 

I said before I always try to use Kato for the 7.1mm stock this is because they use plastic axels and it makes it super easy to take the wheels apart. Tomix use a metal axel with a plastic ring on one wheel. That wheel moves much more freely than the metal to metal wheel and it is very easy wreck the balance.

1347657274_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_35_42.png.47475f811f8ad150913fd5dd13fb1c5f.png

 

I put the wheel face down on the plate

1032563351_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_36_06.png.787d0b1cdebf303b06a768ee216ee402.png

 

The plate sits in the jig

937831687_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_36_13.png.0c1eb8726d50ccc59a6279b20a3f442c.png

 

The back plate is secured with a nut and bolt then gently tightened.

1720848969_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_36_26.png.84619d06233438c12b52e59b07610ed0.png

 

The plate that holds the wheels sticks out by 0.95mm

294156814_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_36_36.png.e8ffe9c34aaa4dfedf55b4482adeb0c8.png

 

I put it in a vice and compress it. This pushes the small plate back until it is flush with the rest of the jig. So far I have had no issues with nuts coming loose [INSERT JOKE HERE] or cross threading.

1175658305_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_36_44.png.b4c9ff1c93e579952420fd39f4b4e474.png      257346825_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_36_55.png.bdeb5b4f0003e1cb47be4b607c30ce0f.png

 

There is a 1.9mm recess on the back for scoring the axel with a knife. I did have a cunning plan for the hole being much wider than needed when I made the jig however I cannot for the life of me remember what it was!

767719200_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_37_03.png.29547c7bdf4862307d9d86f6c87c2173.png

 

I usually do a quick check of each axel using some callipers and when I am happy I put all the bits back together.

346484085_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_37_12.png.2a6a8f9ff3857c356ee586eb2b1d35fc.png  564651551_Screenshot2020-07-05at20_37_18.png.568cb791c27a2375d8f6bbfdc56954a7.png

 

I hope that made sense. 

Joe

Edited by Kamome442
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Kamome442
Posted (edited)

Request for information.

 

A slightly different post today, I am struggling to find information on a particular bridge that I am working on.

 

It is on the Tokaido Shinkansen, at the south end of the station and appears to use wooden sleepers (highlighted in yellow)328938767_Screenshot2020-07-06at17_09_21.thumb.png.d5865f6f2cfa3fc1db89602c0436081a.png

Source: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Shimbashi+Station/@35.6741323,139.7619462,78m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x5851f1d35efc45b9!8m2!3d35.6661322!4d139.7584123

 

I am trying to work out how the sleepers are attached to the bridge deck, I assume they are lifted up slightly (on I beams maybe) so that they are not sat in water when it rains. All the other bridges on the layout that use wooden sleepers are a truss style bridge with recessed drainage. This however appears to be a box girder bridge with a solid deck. There are 5 'humps' running between the tracks which seems be some form of support. 

 

I haven't worked on this type of construction before and just wondered if anyone here is familiar with the design or may know of any articles or images I can be directed to.

 

Many thanks

Joe

 

Edited by Kamome442

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Socimi

They look more like darkened-down small sleepers on a ballast-less support. 

 

They do look similar to the sleepers on the nearby girder bridge on the Keihin-Tohoku Line Yokohama-bound track, but i think these aren't wood either.

 

There is a similar bridge just south of Shinbashi station, above the Dai-Ichi-Keihin ave. (National Route No.15). Here the sleepers are more clearly visible.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6640532,139.7585457,63a,35y,39.59t/data=!3m1!1e3

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Kamome442
Posted (edited)

Hi Socimi,

Thank you very much for the information, I will take a look.

Joe

 

Edit: That is awesome Socimi, a much clearer image and quick check on streetview it is the same bridge construction.

Edited by Kamome442
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Kamome442
Posted (edited)

A little more research done today, this has been a fun one to work out.

The first bit of progress was finding a shot of the bridge from another angle. It looks like there is a cant on the sleepers.

1447876129_Screenshot2020-07-08at19_27_35.png.5feb17d8b0f7d8868693519681607a82.png

Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yamanote_Line_and_Yurakucho_Station_from_the_Imperial_Hotel_(3205283292).jpg

 

It still didn't give a good understanding of how the sleepers are attached until I randomly saw a picture from Tokyo Station.

If I am not mistaken these sleepers look very similar, closely spaced on a solid surface with no ballast.

563478724_Screenshot2020-07-08at19_28_22.png.3d114e0a81f8d086483dc0db89b48b6a.png

Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FFU_on_Shinkansen_track.jpg

 

Then it was just a case of hunting through pictures and videos taken from the Shinkansen platforms at Tokyo and bingo!

1089567028_Screenshot2020-07-07at13_25_49.thumb.png.fa4c2c7ec2389155d70e48eed0454e48.png

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_-c8uwI6aU

 

They have thick layer of scrunge on them but to my eye they seem to be wood or maybe metal?! I'm not sure.

Once they have had a good coat of rust and brake dust it will difficult to tell what they are.

Joe

 

 

Edited by Kamome442

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Kamome442
Posted (edited)

A little bonus video I found of a Yokohama-bound Keihin-Tohoku Line train running over the bridge at Yurakucho.

 

Bouncy! I may need to make some sleepers from sponge.

Edited by Kamome442
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Kamome442

It has been a quiet week for me on the layout.  I'm waiting for the bridge etches to arrive so that I can get them placed and lay more track.

I have been tinkering with the canopy that sits next to the station. Here is the progress so far: 

1787596181_Screenshot2020-07-22at15_02_41.thumb.png.34f2c10c7abf70170e42d4af2e658f10.png

 

It is basically a big glass circle that sits on a metal frame. A lift, escalators and steps lead to a basement level for surrounding stores and Metro stations.

743132761_Screenshot2020-07-22at15_06_41.thumb.png.45d695bf89ea668b169390161e66429c.png

 

It will be a while before I make it up. There are however a lot of little details get right like the sun shade made from wooden slats. The benefit of drawing it up on a computer is that I can change it as many times as I like without spending any money. The downside, it's pretty boring to do.

Joe

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railsquid

Oooh, I know that canopy well.

 

Out of curiosity, do you have any plans to model the flashing warning lights advising drivers of a bridge pillar in the middle of the road which passes under the station?

 

See this thread:

 

😉

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Kamome442

Hi railsquid,

As canopies go it's a good one, I like having the old and the new with it next to the brick arches.

I will definitely have the lights under the bridge (hopefully flashing), I may include the cone too.

It's a good job I am making the yellow beam in front of the bridge from etched metal, it should hopefully stop a Tomytec truck.

 

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DanielMackay

Goodness I love this thread. Exemplary ambition and execution. Following with gusto!

 

I know PE from 1:700 ship modeling. Not sure I want it to intrude on my N-scale railroading. 

 

My wife always asks why I pick the small scales...

 

Daniel

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Kamome442

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for the kind words, I'm glad you are enjoying the thread. 

I do sometimes wonder why I chose to model such a small scale, especially when an etch arrives. I am guessing it takes some serious patients to work in 1:700!

 

I am pinching another technique from ship modellers and using rigging elastic for the catenary wires.

I made a mock up of one section about 6 months ago to see how it looks.

846985169_Screenshot2020-07-25at12_05_10.thumb.png.7892b12ceafc494175cd3e53e7eeb8cb.png

 

280125961_Screenshot2020-07-25at12_05_25.thumb.png.b2d07a7f0345a61f9a09e738885df590.png

 

I have been stress testing it for sometime now and I am quite impressed with what it can withstand.

687405848_Screenshot2020-07-25at12_05_53.thumb.png.3a03a00bf771ec28a73fb66814c08c4d.png

 

600738789_Screenshot2020-07-25at12_05_40.thumb.png.e18862d0da4b4cde1dbb6b526eeef860.png

 

Joe

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Tony Galiani

Looks great.  Could you share your technique for the catenary?  On my recent project, I made very simplified catenary using polyester thread.  It looks okay but there is plenty of room for me to improve but I am very intimidated by the prospect of making something more realistic.  Never mind getting the pantographs of my various trams to stay up at a consistent height.  I have a couple of electric locomotive kits waiting to be worked on as well as some Tomytec trams to complete but have been stalled - not sure how I want to proceed - stick with thread, go without wires as that can look okay or try to do some sort of wiring using the elastic thread I purchased (but have not yet tried to use).

Cheers,

Tony Galiani

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cteno4

Joe, 

 

excellent work! Really nice, often wondered how well elastic would work for catenary. Did you use the model ship elastic? I heard of the issue with some threads and elastic that can slowly attract dust that gets caught well in the hairs and can be hard to remove.

 

jeff

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Kamome442

Hi Tony - It's good to hear from you, I have enjoyed following Chihiro Horikawa's progress. I used single strand 0.03mm (0.02mm for the droppers) rigging elastic so it was a little fiddly at first. I found it would curl up on it's self all the time. I solved this by drawing the design on a piece of card. I used sticky tape to hold down each piece of elastic,  pins were used to form the curve of the top messenger wire. Then I  dipped a pin in superglue and touched each of the joins. It sticks pretty much instantly. I did glue the catenary to the cardboard a few times. When I get around to making a more permanent jig I will drill holes wherever there is a join.

 

Jeff - Thank you, It works really quite well. I originally used rigging elastic from Ammo however I have switched to a company called Uschi Van Der Rosten simply because it is better value. I have had that little section on my desk for half a year now and so far I haven't had any issues with dust. That said I do treat it like a stress toy and twang it while I am thinking so there probably isn't much chance for it to build up. I will be interesting to see if it becomes sticky as time passes. 

 

Joe

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cteno4

Joe,

 

cool. Great dual stress relief for you and stress test on the catenary! Good that fingering it has not gotten anything on it that has attracted the dust.

 

from what I remember as a younger lad when I did a number of sailing ship models it has something to do with little hairs on the thread that end up trapping the dust and then trying to get it off just gets it more entangled and the hairs getting more raised. I experienced it on my first little layout where I used thread for phone wires and remember seeing the dust appear on the thread before anywhere else!

 

so you then just glue it to the cross arms or hook it in place? Was wondering if making little loops on the ends would let you take them off if needed to work on things.

 

i remember making jigs like that to do a lot of rigging pieces, quite fun but can get a little tedious.

 

jeff

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Kamome442

Jeff,

 

Interesting I will have to leave a piece of the elastic hung up somewhere to see how quickly it attracts dust. 

I was just planning to glue them to the cross arms, I didn't think of making little loops at the ends so they hook on. I am going to have to give that a try!!

 

Joe

 

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Tony Galiani

Thanks for the info.  Something new for me to learn.  I have some EZ Line so wondering if that might work.  I also did a search and see that there are various types of model rigging - something I had not known.

Tony Galiani

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Kamome442

Tony,

 

You're welcome, EZ should work very well, I think. I randomly stumbled on elastic rigging when I was searching for EZ line, one of many happy accidents trying to look things up. 

 

Joe

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cteno4

From what I’ve seen the ez line looks to work well, probably the same stuff as the elastic rigging just sold to model railroaders! I got a small spool of the smallest stuff and tested it between a couple of toothpicks and it was quite nice. Was not thinking for catenary though, but now I am!

 

jeff

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Kamome

It will be great to watch the trains snaking their way through this scene. Looks a very impressive project and I look forward to following its progress. You’ve certainly set the bar very high but it will be a phenomenal layout.

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