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trainsforever8

E235-1000 series for the Yokosuka/Sobu Line

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Socimi
7 hours ago, trainsforever8 said:

Now that we have seen the long distance version of this model, can't wait to see the metro-through service version. I'm guessing they will eventually replace the E231 that run on the Tozai line?

 

There are a few rumors around about E235s being introduced on the Tokaido and Ueno-Tokyo lines instead, with the aim of displacing E231-1000s, wich will be transferred to local lines to replace 211s and the Sagami Line 205-500s.

 

E231-800s are from 2003, wich makes them relatively old, but not as much to require a replacement. Subway-to-JR inter-running trains are, generally, highly specialized, wich means they have a practical longer lifespan compared to their above-ground-only variants.

Edited by Socimi
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Waisneed

I would wonder how the microwave front of the E235 would incorporate a door.

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railsquid
15 minutes ago, Waisneed said:

I would wonder how the microwave front of the E235 would incorporate a door.

 

Assuming an underground, narrow-bodied version is built, I imagine the front would bear the same resemblance to the other E235 as the E233-2000 does to other E233s.

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Yavianice

Probably kind of similar to the Sotetsu 12000 series (aboveground) and 20000 series (underground) which look very similar despite the underground version having a door.

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Cat

It would make a handsome microwave!

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RossDensha

Oh yes! With a fancy colour scheme, and a full colour LED screen!

I wonder what other avant-garde appliances JR East will build in the future.

 

Poor humour aside, I don't mind the new E235, the dark blue looks quite smart.

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Tony Galiani

I like the color scheme.  Wonder why the pantographs are up since the train is under tow.

 

Tony Galiani

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Waisneed
3 hours ago, Tony Galiani said:

I like the color scheme.  Wonder why the pantographs are up since the train is under tow.

 

Tony Galiani

I don't really know about the train protection schemes installed on the E235 or the line it is towed, but maybe there are incompatibilities and it had to be towed because of that?

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railsquid
6 hours ago, Tony Galiani said:

I like the color scheme.  Wonder why the pantographs are up since the train is under tow.

 

So the EMU's brakes can be operated.

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Waisneed
10 hours ago, railsquid said:

 

So the EMU's brakes can be operated.

The air brakes should be able to be operated even with the systems shut down. If you for some reason mean the dynamic or / and electric brakes, it still wouldn't explain why the E325 would operate alone.

 

I think it's the lacknofninstructed personel and the MU capabilities of the loco towing. Setting up an EMU for cold towing is more complicated than just MUing / steering the unit.

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Socimi

Maybe they had tecnichians onboard doing en-route tests...

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railsquid
4 hours ago, Waisneed said:

The air brakes should be able to be operated even with the systems shut down. If you for some reason mean the dynamic or / and electric brakes, it still wouldn't explain why the E325 would operate alone.

 

I think it's the lacknofninstructed personel and the MU capabilities of the loco towing. Setting up an EMU for cold towing is more complicated than just MUing / steering the unit.

 

I'm no expert, and might be wrong, but I recall seeing that in an explanation somewhere for this kind of movement (something to do with the electronic control system needing to be active). Wikipedia indicates JR East is in the habit of towing EMUs with pantographs raised when hauling trains from factories to provide power for "auxiliary devices and air compressor units":

 

Quote

このうち、東日本旅客鉄道(JR東日本)の総合車両製作所新津事業所で製造された新製車の配給列車において、輸送される車両のパンタグラフを上げているが、これは自走するためではなく、補助電源装置(静止形インバータ)や空気圧縮機を使用するためである。

 

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/車両輸送#甲種輸送と配給列車

 

 

Edited by railsquid
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Socimi
2 hours ago, railsquid said:

 

"auxiliary devices and air compressor units":

 

Basically the low-voltage on-board batteries and the air conditioning...

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Tomoha

Cool.

Edited by Tomoha

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RossDensha

In service as of yesterday. This video includes a look around the inside.

(Video: @ayokoi)

Edited by RossDensha
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Sacto1985

I've read they're going to scrap all the E217 train sets. I believe the train sets are over 20 years old, hence the reason why for the scrapping.

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miyakoji

Two 15 car sets were built in 1994 and put into service on December 3rd of that year.  The last group, 145 cars, was built in 1999.  So yeah, 21 years at the least.  It would be interesting to see a few examples of the cars in the best condition versus a few of the worst.

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railsquid

There are rumours going around that some might join the 205s in Indonesia, but nothing solid.

 

The interiors of sets I've been on recently have all been a little scuffed and generally a bit worn down and obviously far from new, but nothing a refurbishment wouldn't fix, and I suspect many metropolises even in other G7 countries would jealous to have such relatively modern trains in decent condition... But it's a non-standard class and JR East will have their reasons, possibly related to the relative tax and maintenance efficiency of acquiring new, standard stock vs refurbishing old stock.

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Sacto1985

The age of the E217's are a factor in their likelihood of heading for the scrapyard. They've been hard-worked on the Tokyo to Yokosuka Line service and from Tokyo to much of Chiba Prefecture.

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200系

With the latest microwave now ready to provide an oven ready solution (I'll stop, I promise...honest) for the Yokosuka-Sōbū Rapid line, I thought the following to be quite appropriate:

 

In further new, over the past few days, the first E217 series formations have been forwarded  out of the Kamakura Vehicle Centre, this included the following formations: 

 

11 car formations:

 

Y-43 on the 22nd of December

Y-51 on the 23rd

Y-45 on the 24th

Y-48 today, 25/12

 

Interestingly, these were all part of the final batch (batch 8 ) built in 1999. (including the last E217 series formation built), and all went through renewal in 2010, which might suggest that these formations were closer to their next general inspections than some of the others.

 

4 car formations:

 

Y-124 on the 22nd

Y-125 on the 23rd

Y-137 on the 24th

Y-111 on the 25th

 

A more eclectic bunch, Y-111 was built in 1996, Y124/125 in 1998 (with the exception of the KuHa E216-2000, which were built in 1996 for (current) Y-5/Y-6 (former F-5/F-6)) and Y-137 in 1998 (same story with the KuHa E216-2000, though this time it was built for Y-18 (formerly F-18) in 1997). All were renewed between 2008 and 2009, not surprisingly concidering the different operational patterns between the main and additional formations, that their inspection dates might not overlap with the main formations?

 

From at least two it has been confirmed that the headrest covers (green cars of course) were removed before forwarding, this can generally been seen as a kiss of death of sorts, as that's usually done for cars that will be scrapped (administratively, i.e. officially scrapped from the records) on arival at the maintenance centre.

 

With 5+5, E235 series 1000 sub-type formations delivered at this moment, it's not unlikely that another two E217 series formations (main and additional) might be retired in the coming days.

 

Anyway, for those interested in the latest development, I recommend (in Japanese)

https://4gousya.net/forums/thread/series217

 

On 12/23/2020 at 1:29 AM, railsquid said:

There are rumours going around that some might join the 205s in Indonesia, but nothing solid.

 

Yes, I've read those as well, though I personally don't see it happening at this moment. There has been no official communication with regards to the fate of the surplus E217 series cars, so at this moment it's all just speculations (either educated or the opposite...) and rumours at the moment.

That said, on the 12th of November EF64 1031 was apparently used to see if there were any issues with forwarding E217 series cars under tow. As EF64 1031, based at the Nagano General Vehicle centre, is often used for the transport of scrapped cars towards Nagano, this might be a strong signal that at least some cars will be dismantled in the future.

 

https://japan-railway.com/jre-e217-y101-201112/

 

On 12/22/2020 at 6:51 PM, miyakoji said:

It would be interesting to see a few examples of the cars in the best condition versus a few of the worst.

 

Though I'm not in Railsquids lucky position of being able to observe them daily (I'm not jealous at all, no sir), during my last trip to Japan in October 2019 I tried to ride as many different E217 series formations as possible within my itinerary, and my observations were similar to his, a bit grubby and tired from a Japanese perspective though nothing really noteworthy ( I personaly think the 209 series 2100/2200 sub-types look a bit worse for wear than the E217 series). I actually travelled on the recently retired formation Y-48 during my trip, and I can't say there was anything out of the ordinary in comparison to her sisters. I also had a good closeup look, during my last day, of formation Y-2, one of the pre-production formations, and I'd say she didn't look that much worse than her newer sisters either, though from the latest videos I've seen of her, both Y-1 and Y-2 have deteriorated significantly in the last year. To be fair though, I'm a bit of a fan of the E217 series, so I'm not entirely unbiased though.

 

On 12/23/2020 at 1:29 AM, railsquid said:

But it's a non-standard class and JR East will have their reasons, possibly related to the relative tax and maintenance efficiency of acquiring new, standard stock vs refurbishing old stock.

 

It's non standard in terms of composition, but I'm not too sure if it's really all that different from a maintenance point of view. As the E217 series is based around the 209 series concept, most of it's equipment is based on the preceding series (though mated to a newly developed "wide body" which would later be used, in an improved form, for the E231 series), and as such it shares a lot of identical, or nearly identical, equipment with the 209 series cars. This includes the traction motors (though using different gearing), bogies, pantographs and propulsion package as well as a number of smaller components which I may be forgetting. During their renewal, they also received the same, Mitsubishi supplied, IGBT-VVVF system as the 209-0 to 209-2100/2200, which were also updated from GTO to IGBT-VVVF at the same time (they both received SC89 type inverters, though the 209-0 went from the SC41A, with the E217 series having used the slightly different SC41B type).

 

Your, well made point, still stands though I just ended up being a bit nitpicky (as usual😄).

 

that said I personally think that, instead of the actual age of the E217 series formation being the main concern, it's (as usual with decisions like these) a combination of factors which will eventually determine the need for replacement of the E217 series. First, the Narita-Sōbu Rapid-Yokosuka line service is one of the longest services within the Kantō area commuter system, it also has a number of relatively fast sections, which means the series used on this line travel substantial distances every day, which starts to add up over the years. This has been true for the preceding series, the 113 series (in particular the 113 series 1000 sub-types (conforming to the subway regulations at that time), which were built for the new Tōkyō Tunnel) which was retired between 1994 and 1999, though a number found further employ in the Bōsō area, other were scrapped, with some reaching at most between 21 to 25 years of service.

From what I remember, the oldest E217 series formations were close to, or actually reaching, the 2.4 million kilometre mark (the projected (guaranteed)  life span of, among others, the VVVF inverters) by 2007, hence the decision to start the renewal program the next year. As such its no big leap to expect that the oldest formations may have, or are close to doubling this to around 4.8 million kilometres. The total distance travelled is actually of much greater significance with regards to aging in comparison to the actual physical age. In comparison, the 209 series 500 sub-type cars, as well as the E231 series 0 sub-type cars, of the Chūō-Sōbu line of similar vintage to the E217 series cars were still using their original inverter up till the moment they were transferred, between 19 and 20 years for the 209 series 500 sub-type and between 17 and 22 years for the E231 series 0/900 sub-types, while the E217 series cars were updated between 11 and 16 years of service.

 

The second possible reason for scrapping rather than transferring them to another line, would be, in my opinion, that there's simply nowhere to transfer them to. The bulk of the remaining series in need of retirement, primarily the 205 series, have already been replaced by surplus 209 series 500 sub-type and E231 series 0 sub-type cars retired from the Chūō-Sōbu line (and two, former Chūō-Sōbu line formations from the Jōban line) over the last few years. What's remains is just a handful of 205 series on the Tsurumi and Nikkō/Utsunomiya line, the 211 series in the Nagano area, and most likely the 209 series 2100/2200 sub-type cars in the Bōsō area (which are of the same vintage as the E217 series, so there's no reason to replace them with the E217 series, most likely the E131 series will start playing that roll in the future).

 

Though these are simply my own guesses, based on recent history, but until JR East provides the official word, or further trends can be observed that's all there is to it.

 

Observing the further developments around the E217 series will be a fascinating (as well as sad in my opinion, I do have a special attachment to them) pastime for me at least.

 

Cheers! (and happy holidays to everyone on this forum!)

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RossDensha

I think you're right when you say they won't be transferred to another JR East line, they're too non standard, and they probably just want to be rid of them. They could still go to Indonesia.

 

What I also think will be interesting to observe, is what they decide to do with 211s in Nagano, perhaps a sub-series of the E129. But that's bearing in mind that E129s were introduced to replace very old 115 series sets, and the same can be said for the SR1 series introduced this year. The E217s wouldn't work there because it's too cold. Do they even need replacing? Would they replace them with something new, or a transfer?

 

Sorry to venture a bit off topic, I'm thinking out loud...

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Socimi
6 hours ago, 200系 said:

The second possible reason for scrapping rather than transferring them to another line, would be, in my opinion, that there's simply nowhere to transfer them to. The bulk of the remaining series in need of retirement, primarily the 205 series, have already been replaced by surplus 209 series 500 sub-type and E231 series 0 sub-type cars retired from the Chūō-Sōbu line (and two, former Chūō-Sōbu line formations from the Jōban line) over the last few years. What's remains is just a handful of 205 series on the Tsurumi and Nikkō/Utsunomiya line, the 211 series in the Nagano area, and most likely the 209 series 2100/2200 sub-type cars in the Bōsō area (which are of the same vintage as the E217 series, so there's no reason to replace them with the E217 series, most likely the E131 series will start playing that roll in the future).

 

Very true.


Altough i've always tought that a few E217s (the one in the best condititon) would have ended up running on the Ryomo Line to replace the remaining 211 Series sets operating there.

 

Also, i might be mistaken, but i've also heard a few rumors about some E217 Series sets being moved to the Sagami Line to replace the 205-500 Series. Interesting concept, but i find it very unlikely. Resale to third-sector railways might be even more unlikely.

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RossDensha
53 minutes ago, Socimi said:

E217 Series sets being moved to the Sagami Line to replace the 205-500 Series. Interesting concept, but i find it very unlikely.

I also think it's unlikely, the 205-500 series are only 3 years older than the oldest E217s.

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