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Gerryo's Largest N Layout


gerryo

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I had some more free time so I played a little more.  My comments about not having proper yard space got me thinking.  Oh, Oh, you say.  And you are right.

 

As you saw, I used a helix to do a yard under the layout.  I have also complained about my ability to reach and to bend down, because of my age.  So I moved the yard to the end of the layout.  This made the layout over 13 feet long.  This is just not space affordable for me.

 

So I compromised and turned my idea 90 degrees and moved it up to the layout level.  This takes up some space as the layout is now 10 ft. long again, but I don't have to bend under it to set up the trains.  With everything at sitting level I should be more comfortable playing trains.

 

So the layout ends up at 10 feet long by 5.25 feet wide.  This extra 3 inches gives some room for a streetscape at the main station. 

 

Gerry

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Can you get all the way around this or will it be on wheels to pull away from a wall to work on it. Sounds like you have now filled the living room! Maybe put the bed under the layout?

 

Jeff

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No, I won't need to get at it all the way round.  And no, it won't take up all of the living room.  I have arranged for a 2 bedroom apartment that will handle this quite nicely.  Under the layout will be for storage of other things.

 

I will still have a kitchenette, an eating area, my separate bedroom, and an outside balcony.  Neat, eh.

 

Gerry

Edited by gerryo
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Nice! You have your priorities set! So the layout will be in the second bedroom or the living room?

 

At 5.5' deep and 10' long you will need to get at the backside to build and potentially retrieve trains in emergencies. 2' is the comfortable reach on a table height layout, 2.5' a stretch and I am tall and long armed and 3' is my max stretch to do anything of use.

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

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So Jeff, what you are telling me to do is tone it down.  Go back to where I started.

 

If I make it shorter I lose the proper slopes on the viaduct.  If I make it narrower I lose the use of the track over top of the mountain and the viaduct has to go through the tunnel.  I can still have the tram track thru the tunnel, but no bus road.  I lose the streetscape along the station side.  But I will be able to reach anywhere on the layout with three sides open.

 

I will have to use a helix and put any yard under the layout.

 

Gerry

Edited by gerryo
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well no, just that you will need to get to the back side of any layout that is like 2.5' plus and longer than about 5' at some point. this means either passage back there or it being able to easily move from the wall to get access.

 

I only say this as i've done it just in doing layouts on a big board i have in my basement thats bit over 6' square (no wheels just on sawhorses against a wall) that i sometimes set things up on. getting to the back center area is tough and im 6' 4" with long arms. reaching past 2' to do much of anything useful means you need to put weight down on the layout with your other hand as well and that can become more precarious as more stuff on the layout and making sure layout can take the weight well.

 

what are you thinking for the sub structure of all of this? with the helix and yard it sounds like you need some sort of larger integrated leg and bracing structure to keep all the parts solidly integrated. if you do this with legs you can just put wheels on them and then you have the bennie of moving the layout some for access, cleaning, etc. i would do the table top in sections though if you get this big as larger chunks get so hard to work with and moving at all is a pain or impossible in some situations. layouts like this can just be like quality 1/2-3/4" ply cut into 2-3" strips (or 1x2 to 1x4 strip lumber, but getting expensive now and hard to find good straight stuff) for a sub structure and something like 3/16" luan ply top or equivalent. top with foam, homasote or others if you wish. keep the panels to under like 5'x4' and just bolt them together. sub structure can be legs that bolt on and cross bracing if needed for added leg stability.

 

take a look at this

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/12208-what-do-you-do-today-on-your-layout/page-24?do=findComment&comment=156289

 

pretty fast construction and looks pretty with the 2" cherry edge banding applied. alot of the work was milling up the 1/2"x2" baltic birch, but that was a lot cheaper and better quality than the 1x2 material we get now at most places here. ikea legs were cheap ($4 ea) and like 10 minutes to mount. legs can be built but it would have taken a lot of time and money and never as pretty as simple ikea legs like this. also he wanted to maybe change the shape so we wanted it easily to take apart and reform.

 

prebuilt legs with wheels are quite a bit more $$, but probably worth it compared to wood, wheels and a lot of work to get to work well and never will look as good.

 

if you do this all with smaller tables it will work, but make sure you come up with some way to lock the table units together. but of course you probably cant move it all on wheels.

 

another idea might be to just make your top layer and set it on a couple of those wire metal shelf cart units. you can get varing length legs, wheels, and add a shelf for storage as well. two 4'x15-18" at the right height you want would support this fine and allow easy movement. just need to fasten the carts to the top slab and make sure the top slab has a good support structure (either run some L beams or use more like 4" high frame. take a look at the support frame the legs attach to on renatos above. simple and sturdy and pretty cheap. 2" hi table top pieces just sit on top of this.

 

jeff

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I already have 2 - 2 feet x 4 feet modules made with 1x3 framing and 1/2 inch ply top.  I also have 2 - 2 feet x 4 feet modules with 1x2 framing and 1/2 inch ply top.  With folding metal legs already on the 1x3 framing.  These folding legs are the right height for a sitting table.  This will then be the basis (with some mods) for the 4x8 layout. 4 - 2 foot sections.  I would use 3/4 inch styro cut into 2' x 4' sections on top with a 1 x 3 MDF strip around the perimeter, just for looks. This still leaves the yard problem.

 

I just can't think of any easy way to do a yard.  The 3 short tracks by the station area are not enough.  I have tried to crawl under my already built modules to see if I could use an under layout yard, and it is impossible for me. 

 

Has anyone else any suggestions?

 

Gerry

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Gerry,

 

Can you leave 1' access strip behind the layout? That would give you enough room to slip in to work on things along the back center.

 

Modules sound good and sturdy. Some screws or bolts should lock it all together well, but won't be very movable. Folding legs are sturdy but may get in the way some for the lower yard and helix as well as access,

 

Yeah I was worried about access to the yard below w.o a very clear and clean leg/support system to allow a lot of free access. It would be some crawling no matter what you do. If you had the clearance you could look at having the lower yard slide out on drawer tracks. Just have to have a locking mech to lock the drawer in with the track to the helix in the right alignment. This would let the yard be more accessible to deal with trains. With that helix under the table you will have to deal with crawling under there as at some point you'll have trouble with it and a train.

 

There is one concept you could look at and that's doing a small yard ladder with like 4-7 tracks on a rolling cart you could attach to the layout or remove when you need the space to move around. You could even build the yard as a removable module and have a few on shelves in the cart. You need to be careful in moving a yard module full of trains, but I've experimented with this a little and it was actually easier to do with 4 tracks (about 3.5' long) on a module about 1' wide than a single track on a 2" x3.5' strip of wood. Again one of those wire metal shelf carts might work for this like 18"x4'. Then shelves to slide yard modules onto. Big rub is the space to attach this to the layout easily.

 

I've often considered doing a single track cassette/module to run trains onto and then store in a wall display cabinet or on a table at a train show with the club layout. Our new club layout is super expandable so for the smallest size w/o our yard I may experiment with the idea so we can display trains on a table but just slap them onto the layout quickly to run.

 

I've seen folks use little rollaround drawer units that have many low height drawers and they just store trains in the drawers w.o boxes/cases with foam on the bottom of the drawer and small slips of foam to go gpbetween the cars. Or use the large foam storage boxes that you just set cars into quickly. Quicker and easier than trying to get them in and out of their storage cases.

 

Train storage is always a problem, especially as the layout gets smaller. Sorry no magic bullet, it's always tradeoffs.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

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The roll-away separate yard module seems like a good idea for me.  If built to the same height as the layout with only one connecting track, made with flex track, could be relatively easy.  And remember, this layout does not go to shows, so the yard module could be stored in some other room and only moved in when needed.

 

I'll think that out a bit more and have a go with it. I seem to remember that I have some small wheels around somewhere.  Probably packed by now.

 

Thanx Jeff

Gerry

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I now have 2 versions of a left end portable yard for the layout.

 

One shows a 4 foot yard set out from the layout end and makes the total layout 12 feet long.

The other is also 2 feet wide and makes the total layout 10 feet long by turning the yard 90 degrees.  I have made this one 5 feet in length to be sure of long enough tracks for the shinkansens.

 

Both would be on wheels and could be stored elsewhere when not in use.

 

Gerry

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This longer, narrower yard is better because I have 3 Shinkansens, and 3 Odaku which each need a track of their own.  The width of the yard, at 1 foot, could then be stored between the layout and the wall, and moved into place when needed.

 

Gerry

 

 

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One thing with the cart is you need to have it all on the same floor, i.e. No thresholds in doorways or rugs etc as any good bump would probably cause derailments...

 

Also might think of a peg and hole to do along the edge of the layout and the edge of the cart to line them up and take the strain if the cart is bumped and not the track.

 

Again could think of having multiples of the top yard modules you could pull off and put on lower shelves for storage.

 

Jeff

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After drawing the yard extension the other day I got to thinking and measuring.  I have a cupboard that I have been using in my train room for storage. This cupboard is 2 inches shorter that my plan for the long yard.  This cupboard is 2 inches wider than my plan.  With swivel casters added it would come pretty close in height.  So guess what.  Ready-made yard layout and storage.

 

See.  If you get me thinking anything is possible.

 

Gerry

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The other day cteno4 (Jeff) described the JRM Modellers layout at 12 ft. (actually now 14 ft.) and it got me thinking again.  With the difficulties getting enough length for the inclines on the viaduct, I tried to copy the JRM layout, and get back the proper inclines.  But I sure didn't want a 14 foot layout so went back to 10 ft. with this one.  With the yard as an extension of the viaduct tho sure makes the yard easier.  

 

So here it is, a 10 ft. over and under with trams, buses, shinkansens, local lines etc. and possibly a track over the top of the mountain if I can add more height to a loop off the side of the viaduct.

 

I will be shutting down here to do my physical move to Gananoque, Ontario, Canada, on the Sept. 27, so wish me luck with the layout space.

 

Gerry

N 4X10 Viaduct Layout.jpg

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Gerry,

 

not sure what you were copying as the jrm layouts have never had inclines. We specifically avoided them as getting them tuned to work well takes some work and wirh a portable layout that tuning can get whacked with assembly and disassembly. Also inclines don't lend themselves as well to just let it run at shows as there it's hard to have someone at the trestle all the time.

 

our 1.0 layout went from 12'x4' to 14'x4' when we added a section onto the end. Then these had the long 14' yard off of that. 2.0 was a 14'x5' donut with the 14' yard off of that. But they both just had elevated Shinkansen double viaduct running level and the local and express running level at the ground level.

 

the new plan looks like it has long enough inclines if the lower yard off the double track over and under is an intermediate height and the rest of the drop happens on the right curve through the mountain.

 

good luck with the move, those are never fun!

 

jeff

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I didn't mean that the JRM had inclines.  I meant that my previous plan was really too short for decent inclines, so I had to make it longer.  The JRM is of course a level viaduct.

 

I tried to copy the JRM at 12 ft. and was not happy with it, so went back to my own plan.

 

Gerry

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Hi All, I'm back.  My move went relatively smooth. with the usual glitches here and there.  I am pleased with the amount of space the new apt. gives me, but certainly not as much as I was DREAMING about.  

 

The Cortina Z will be in a small room by itself, with a small day bed for any single guests.  The N Scale might have to be toned down a bit but will still be large.  And Jeff, I have a reasonable effort on the JRM plan to do a 4 x 10  with a variation on the Viaduct.  Pics will come later.

 

I just got my Internet back a few minutes ago so feel a bit rusty with the drawing of plans.

 

Gerry

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This is my finalized 4X10 N scale plan.  Please offer ideas and necessary changes, just because.  

I have settled on having the N layout in the living room as there is one wall plenty long enough.  I could put a 16 foot long layout there but that would be kind of stupid for a home layout.

 

The Z plan will go in the small bedroom, 'cause my 48 year old daughter has said she needs to have a small layout to play with  when she comes to visit.

 

Most of the elements of my N plan are copied from the JRM Show layout in Washington.  The viaduct has been changed to have a small station on the off side and a long one on the diagonal at front.  

 

I finally figured out how to use the section and colour part of the AnyRail program and I must say it all looks better.

 

Gerry59d7eb0be3dbe_N-4X10TotalPlan.thumb.jpg.2743b247e80b5b8120e00e0681455442.jpg 

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Whoaaaa! Flash backs! I think we built that plan from track pieces like 30 times! I think you will like it. Thenshinkansen being off kilter really helps from things feeling like loops w.in loops. Also the indent helps make it feel longer. S curve was not an issue with 8 car trains just once and a while with 16 car trains. You could probably shorten the station to just the start of the points to save 2 kato station plates (they get expensive) or keep the left the way it is and remove 128 in the middle of the station and he right end of the station plates start at the points (may be hard to support the station shorter on the left with the ground tracks where they are). The big station can be double wide kato plates or you can make your own, but that gets to be a bit of construction, especially to keep it nice and flat and true. Little station I made from 3/8" ply that I topped with kato ballest colored/patterned Home Despot Formica, but you could just paint gray or ballast. I made walls wirh 3/4" 1/16" aluminum L angle stock from home despot and glued onto the sides of the ply and painted gray. These just sat on a kato station entrance and kato supports. This smaller station stayed very true with the aluminum angle epoxied to each side. Bigger station I made in three 75cm sections that had its platform of a laminate of 1/8" masonite, 3/16" foamcore and topped with 1/16" Formica. This gives the same cross section as the kato station plates and the pegs on the walls can push right into the foamcore layer. Also being a laminate they can stay very flat. These had some wood strips under them to support the platforms and look like cement walls and have portals for ground tracks and openings for the kato station entrances and shops at various points.

 

The ground lower lines were also designed to allow the trains to wander a lot and also hard to anticipate where the trains will reappear! Both those things I find nice as straight loops really wear on me fast, personally. 

 

Kato platforms between the two green tracks top center and between the blue lined bottom center.

 

we never ended up doing our tram lines much, they were just too much to do on the setup on the fly with the reversers and get adjusted! We also has some shorter storage spurs on the blue line but they were #4 points and very cranky in the situations they were in. Purple was container tracks, but we could not do much of a container yard until we added 2' to the length of the layout later.

 

might look at a loop back bus line along the lines of the yellow tram line. I had fiddled with that idea way back as either a loop or reversing loops on each end with the faller busses. Our Shinkansen station entrances were at the top right end of the station and about a third of the way in on the bottom left. One bus loop/loopback along the lines of the yellow and hidden under the station could serve each and look separate from the two sides.

 

it is a spaghetti bowl, but does make the trains run much more interestingly than plain loops, but is a bit harder to fit in scenery and buildings because of track going everywhere. We stayed away from gradients as this was a setup on the fly layouts and gradients need a lot of tuning we could not do each time and a whole nother set of parts and instructions as well. Also hard to just let trains run on a gradient loop and at shows we would end up talking to folks a lot so can not always have someone controlling trains constantly.

 

you do need access all the way around on this layout, way too far to reach in. Its also designed to be viewed from all sides, not one particular side.

 

glad to see the old plan is giving some ideas! Have fun!

 

cheers,

 

jeff

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Thanx Jeff.

I'll think on the bus loops.  I already have them, but they never got any use before.  You know me. Always changing my mind.

I can have all-around access, but It will make the layout in the center of the room.  But I guess I expected that, in a narrow room.  But I will still have room for my dining table, my TV, and my computer desk.  Must not forget my new Lazy-Boy too.

Viewing from both sides means that both stations face out to their side.  Better viewing position.

What did you use for the tram reversers?  Walthers used to sell a set but haven't dealt with them for abt. 20 years.

 

Thanx again,

Gerry

 

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There are several reverser circuits out there sold. Also ones on ebay. I think this simple one uses timed reversing circuit andnyou just isolate on of the rails on each end and jump it with a diode, this way the tram goes into the end area and stops as the diode won't let the current flow into the end section on the way to the end. Then after the timer goes off current is reversed and now diode allows current to flow to the tram and it goes to the other end where the reverse happens all over again. These tend to be the simplest solutions as you don't need to do any special wiring to the ends or wire up detectors at the ends which can be finicky and need adjustment to light levels, etc.

 

we have a thread here on the simple timer units and Paul has used a number on his layouts.

 

ive installed several detector kinds on friends layouts and they are finicky and also do break down as more complex system to go wrong.

 

both stations you get decent views of the lower areas from both sides, especially the big station.

 

good luck with it, lots to fit into the room!

 

jeff

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As you all expected, I have made some changes.

 

I have added about 30cm to the right end and named it the East Side Container Yard.  Now I need to figure out what a container yard looks like.  Anyone got any pics of one?  

 

I also changed the spur on the upper inner loop to a siding to have a parking area near the main Viaduct station.

 

It should also be pointed out that the loops at the ends of the bus line near the main station are shown too big.  My loops use 103mm radius and will actually be 66.  Rokuhan nor Tomix have the 66mm in their track pack.

 

Could there be a model Container Ship within the container yard, and have a complete Terminal?  And where would I get an N scale boat.

 

Now to try to get another picture to load here.

Gerry59f5f553d9d32_N-4x10TotalPlan.thumb.jpg.929dee1fa4b96450d2c67b4622b2208f.jpg

 

 

Edited by cteno4
Moved as requested
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> Could there be a model Container Ship within the container yard, and have a complete Terminal?  And where would I get an N scale boat.

 

You truly don't think you have enough going on with that proposed layout already ;-)

 

It may well be different on the left coast, but I think here in the east all inbound containers are transferred to trucks and then driven to a rail yard, if not shipped by truck all the way.

 

I've seen a fair number of photos of Japanese rail-truck container yards (many on the forum - have you tried searching?), and they generally consist of a few long sidings abutted by long paved areas for the trucks.  I haven't seen images of Japanese container ships, and they may well have smaller ones for coastal runs within the country?  Or, do all in-country containers always go by rail?

 

Generally speaking, I don't think a realistic container ship model would fit on your layout - even lengthwise.  While there are a few N-scale ship models (some from Ontario's own Sylvan Scale Models - http://www.sylvanscalemodels.com/Nscalecontent.htm

if you wanted a container ship I'm quite certain that you would need to build it yourself or pay big bucks to have one scratch-built for you.

 

 

Well, what do you know - I was wrong.  Here's an interesting option:

 

https://www.etsy.com/listing/289353797/maersk-alabama-ship-model-36-new?ref=pla_similar_listing_top-5

 

The proto is 476' long and with the model at 3', that's right around 1:159 scale.  It looks like the "windows" are just black paint, and I'm not sure they even bother to indicate doors, but given the number of (implied) containers, this strikes me as a reasonable deal.  Of course, since it's full hull you'd need to cut a hole for it - or build up/cast the waterline around it. 

There's even a movie about an attempted pirate raid on this ship.

 

One possibility would be to build the layout with only the initial turnout for the container area on the main board, and then decide later what you want to do in that space.  This model is over 6" wide, so I'm guessing that it would take up the majority of the container yard all by itself.  Here's a slightly smaller one with side-mounted cranes.

 

https://www.etsy.com/listing/289293439/maersk-sealand-line-container-ship-model?ref=related-6

 

They don't identify a specific ship, so I have no idea what the scale is - although, likely very close to N scale.

 

Their really large (proto) container ships are about the same size and are priced similarly, so I have to think that they're done in a much smaller scale.

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Container yards, dock and ship does take some space. Curt has a nice small one with ship, crane and yard that's takes about 3.5' x 2' area. A container ship would not be really hard to do a waterline module as they tend to be pretty boxy. Just need some carving sanding on a bow and stern, but as waterline you could keep it pretty simple. 

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/photos/kurtslayout/pages/page_38.html

 

jeff

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