Tomix 209-0 fits and starts, and growling

[Guest ___]

Captain,

 

i think in this case it may be a small hunk of grit, puzz or hair sucked up into a truck. that can cause it to not want to turn freely and also mess up the contact with the wheel pickups. i have pulled an amazing amount of crap out of some trucks!! one was aaron's z scale loco that had like 7 cat hairs sucked into one truck, i was amazed that that much could get packed into a tiny z scale truck, but it did!

 

 

Ah, the RealZJ, that thing hadn't worked out of the box. Finally got it working after a trip to Canada and learned it's turning radius was too big for the Pro-Z layout. I do recall, a lot of folks and I mean a lot had the same issue with the RealZJ stuff, both the 183/485 and the EF81. I recall Atsu telling me that there was a major QA issue at the plant.

 

Anycase, that aside, since my issues with the DE10, I've come to learn that the M-4 and M-5 (TOMIX 604 and TOMIX 605) motors tend to attack debris in to the motors, more so other motor sets from what I've been told by the guys at HS and HW. I'm inclined to believe this, though I would like to see what the M-4 from Growly looks like after Jeff runs it through the ultrasonic. I can't help but think that this could be a similar case to Don's train, but again, it's just my early take without seeing it, but I know the Capt dead set on the trucks as well it could be. It's jsut so fracking hard without seeing or dismantling the little thingy to know what's wrong 

[Darren Jeffries]

It's jsut so fracking hard without seeing or dismantling the little thingy to know what's wrong  

 

Oh, we're back to Cylons again! 

[Guest ___]

Keeps me from droppin the actual f'bomb which is incredibly easy for me to do 

[cteno4]

 

Ah, the RealZJ, that thing hadn't worked out of the box. Finally got it working after a trip to Canada and learned it's turning radius was too big for the Pro-Z layout. I do recall, a lot of folks and I mean a lot had the same issue with the RealZJ stuff, both the 183/485 and the EF81. I recall Atsu telling me that there was a major QA issue at the plant.

 

 

was the realZJ the one you brought down for me to open up? so it never ran on your track? that was the one that did have a bunch of small hairs in one of the trucks. even so it never ran well, contacts were not installed properly and one was bent. since i was the first one opening it up it had to be on the assembly this happened. looks like they were working with O gauge tools instead of a Z!

 

in any case it would run a bit before i opened it, applying power directly to the wheels. after pulling it apart, fixing all the contact problems with the trucks and then cleaning the one truck it seemed to run much more evenly, but i didnt have a loop of Z track to run it for longer periods, just back and forth...

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Sorry if my posts started a fracas on this. I was just trying to explain why Aaron was not happy with Tomix. three in a row is not fun and can really sour a purchaser, its totally understandable. with the statistics of larger numbers, though, tomix does not seem to be any different than other japanese manufacturers. that being said its still hard to buy a fourth if the first three have been big problems for you!

 

the de10 is definitely a tomix specific problem. motor is not a great motor and that spring worm drive has a huge amount of friction and sticking potential so if there are any problems with the motor the drive train with just exacerbate it.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Guest ___]

 

Ah, the RealZJ, that thing hadn't worked out of the box. Finally got it working after a trip to Canada and learned it's turning radius was too big for the Pro-Z layout. I do recall, a lot of folks and I mean a lot had the same issue with the RealZJ stuff, both the 183/485 and the EF81. I recall Atsu telling me that there was a major QA issue at the plant.

 

 

was the realZJ the one you brought down for me to open up? so it never ran on your track? that was the one that did have a bunch of small hairs in one of the trucks. even so it never ran well, contacts were not installed properly and one was bent. since i was the first one opening it up it had to be on the assembly this happened. looks like they were working with O gauge tools instead of a Z!

 

in any case it would run a bit before i opened it, applying power directly to the wheels. after pulling it apart, fixing all the contact problems with the trucks and then cleaning the one truck it seemed to run much more evenly, but i didnt have a loop of Z track to run it for longer periods, just back and forth...

 

cheers,

 

jeff

 

Yeah, it would run on the outside track until it would get to the X-over then derail, and it could not handle the inside radius at all.

[Guest ___]

Sorry if my posts started a fracas on this. I was just trying to explain why Aaron was not happy with Tomix. three in a row is not fun and can really sour a purchaser, its totally understandable. with the statistics of larger numbers, though, tomix does not seem to be any different than other japanese manufacturers. that being said its still hard to buy a fourth if the first three have been big problems for you!

 

the de10 is definitely a tomix specific problem. motor is not a great motor and that spring worm drive has a huge amount of friction and sticking potential so if there are any problems with the motor the drive train with just exacerbate it.

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

the M-5 in the TOMIX Kiha40 is the same way as well.

[CaptOblivious]

Progress!

 

I re ran a bunch of tests and confirmed the issue was somwhere between the truck and the brass rails in the body, and not the motor or anything like that. So I did the following, without luck: cleaned the wheels and axles (which were a little dirty) and applied Conducta to the wipers. When that didn't work, I noticed that the only way to recover from a stall was to press on the frame. So I then pulled each of the four springs that transmit current from the trucks and lengthened them about 3mm...quite a lot. Then I applied Conducta to the brass rails where the springs touch them and to the wipers where the springs touch them. And! Almost perfect! Still some running issues that may only be dirty track, but it runs nearly flawlessly now. Gonna check the spring lengths again just in case the remaining issues are because I've only managed to fix one truck, and the other one is stll balky.

[cteno4]

Captain,

 

he great news! nice when you find the problem and a solution!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[alpineaustralia]

Fantastic news Capt.

We should change your title from "Capt" to "Dr".

[CaptOblivious]

Fantastic news Capt.

We should change your title from "Capt" to "Dr".

 

 

Now that I've experience a little of your pain, Alpine, I hope to write up what I did, in grueling detail, in the hopes that it might help you out.

 

Also: would you take your child to see Dr Oblivious? I wouldn't. ;)

[cteno4]

wonder if this would be a good data base to start of trains and the specific problems and solutions!

 

i know the handful we have talked here on the board are pretty well known, but in a few years it might be harder to dig up/sort out. maybe just the final outcome post with a tad of editing?

 

cheers

 

jeff

[grumbeast]

As someone new to Japanese prototype trains I think a database would be fantastic. Right now everything I have runs wonderfully, but I know that that'll change in the future (why doesn't everything last forever! :)  )

 

This has been a fascinating thread that I've lurked on, and as I'm the sort who is very scared to open up my precious trains this kind of conversation will give me a little more confidence if I ever have to

 

G.

[David]

I'd also like to see (and would contribute) to a database of model train details, both problems/repairs as well as the overall information about the set and what prototype it is supposed to match. One of the reasons I've stuck with Kato is that it's very hard to find out the details of Tomix models (is it flywheel drive, what lighting kit does it use, does this set even have a motor car?!). I've been working on and off on a list of Kato DCC friendly models and their details.

 

Could the wiki be used for this? There would need to be a standard for how to organize it, i.e. one page per model, or one page per prototype with a breakdown of the available models, and I'm still not sure how to even add a new page to it.

[CaptOblivious]

I'd also like to see (and would contribute) to a database of model train details, both problems/repairs as well as the overall information about the set and what prototype it is supposed to match. One of the reasons I've stuck with Kato is that it's very hard to find out the details of Tomix models (is it flywheel drive, what lighting kit does it use, does this set even have a motor car?!). I've been working on and off on a list of Kato DCC friendly models and their details.

 

Could the wiki be used for this? There would need to be a standard for how to organize it, i.e. one page per model, or one page per prototype with a breakdown of the available models, and I'm still not sure how to even add a new page to it.

 

I think this is a perfect use of the Wiki. There are a couple of different ways to proceed. The first would be to add a "models" section to existing prototype pages that lists the available (or past) models of that prototype. Then, we could perhaps do a page each on the common mechanisms, and link to those pages. E.g., as you likely know, nearly all of Kato's recent EL (electric loco) models have the same mechanism; we could do a page on dissassembly, conversion, and troubleshooting for that one common mechanism, and link to it from every page that references a model that uses that mechanism. Does that make sense?

 

David, would you like to take the initiative on this? Learning to use the Wiki is very straightforward. Wikipedia has a tutorial that applies to our wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Tutorial

[quinntopia]

hen, we could perhaps do a page each on the common mechanisms, and link to those pages.

 

I love this idea.  Particularly the concept, which I think you are proposing, whereby different models are associated or mapped to common components (motors, chassis, trucks, etc...) thereby reducing the number of potential problems and solutions for hundreds of different models down to...a couple dozen core components?  At least I think that's what the Dr/Capt is proposing. 

[CaptOblivious]

I love this idea.  Particularly the concept, which I think you are proposing, whereby different models are associated or mapped to common components (motors, chassis, trucks, etc...) thereby reducing the number of potential problems and solutions for hundreds of different models down to...a couple dozen core components?  At least I think that's what the Dr/Capt is proposing. 

 

Precisely!

[quinntopia]

Awesome.  It wold also be great to have links to replacement parts! Such a cool idea! 

 

The Wiki sounds like a great place for just this sort of thing! 

[clem24]

I have a 209-0 series now that squeals and also E231-500 Yamanote (also Tomix) that's also developed a squeal. I can only assume they use the same mechanism. I tried lubing the running gears inside the truck, no diff. Tried taking out/disassembling the motor and worm gear assy, cleaned them off, and relubed, no diff. Tried just hooking up the motor to a power source, silent. So it's likely somewhere in the worm gear assy I would think. Note that both of these models, especially the E231, have very minimal run time (maybe 10 minutes on the 209 series and probably close to 2 minutes on the E231). The 209 is probably close to 7 or 8 years old. E231 maybe 4 or 5 years old? Any ideas?

[CaptOblivious]

Squeal? Like something high pitched?

 

One direction, or in both directions?

 

Does it happen with the trucks off? (i.e., if so, it's in the worm gears)

 

Does it happen with one gear assembly removed? Or the other? (which worm gear causes the noise)

 

If it's the trucks, you can narrow down by attaching only one at a time and applying power.

 

My guess it that this might simply be an issue that goes away with run-in. I'd first try running it for 30 minutes at half power or so, and see what happens.