Pashina12 Posted October 28 Author Share Posted October 28 Oh wow, thanks for that link - it's fantastic! I love the then vs now comparisons, this is very helpful, and shows me several areas that I had no previous information on! And you're right, the track arrangement does look rather different at the Wakamatsu end of the station. You raise some interesting thoughts with your track plans. The red lines - I thought about doing that, too, but I rather like the prototypical arrangement with the semi-S curve in the approach, so from that perspective your second plan is more appealing. The radii shouldn't be an issue - by the mid 1960s aside from DCs the only locomotives on the line were C11s, and even before 1963 the only other power on the line post-war was C10s and C12s, and occasionally an 8620, 9600, or C58 in the winter pushing snowploughs; after 1975 only DE10-0 were used. Taking the second plan into consideration, I think I'd still want to delete Down 2 (second track from the top) to save on width to give more room on either side to develop the fore- and background scenery, but there are a lot of options to think about. I'll play around with ideas for a while and see what I can come up with. Thanks for the insights, they're super useful! Link to comment
Junech Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 I personally wouldn't remove Down 2 from the plan. I just know it would bug me forever when I get more space someday and could just add segments for the landscape. Is there another smaller station with options for shunting on the line? Or something like a factory with enough tracks for shunting that is connected to the line? Link to comment
Pashina12 Posted October 28 Author Share Posted October 28 When I get more space someday, it'll be a big enough space to build the large-scale dream version of the Aizu Line layout, a 4m x 4m room in which I'm envisioning a G-shaped layout that will include an all-tracks representation of Aizu-Takinohara at the terminus - at the opposite end of the line from Nishi-Wakamatsu, and which will include the now-under-water section at Kuwabara somewhere. Nishi-Wakamatsu will be represented only together with Aizu-Wakamatsu as hidden staging. Kuwabara and Takinohara are the two *must model* locations for me on the line, with Aizu-Tajima and Yunokami being "would be nice" spots; anything else would be just icing. The main purpose of this project is to get me working on something finally, to have something to play around on with some shunting, and to refine my skills and experiment with various techniques, so that when I do get around to building the Real Thing, I'll have had plenty of good practice to do my vision justice. So I'm not overly concerned about losing one track on this one. This station, though, is (aside from the much vaster Aizu-Wakamatsu) the best spot on the line for shunting purposes, in the sense of having a reasonably wide variety of sidings to shunt. Aizu-Tajima is the second best spot, but to do that real justice I'd need a good 20-30 cm more width, which I just can't do right now. Link to comment
Junech Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 Sounds like a really nice plan. I would rather remove 2 other tracks for the current layout to keep the Down 2 one. I also just threw in the 3-way switches from Peco code 55 track to gain some additional length. Each square is 100x100mm, so you got close to 100mm on both sides for landscape.: Link to comment
MeTheSwede Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 Here are some thoughts: Modelling an imaginary station along the Aizu line would solve A LOT of your problems. Real life station areas are BIG, but an imaginary place can be just the size that fits the rectangular space you have available. If your version of Nishi-Wakamatsu is shorter, has a bit fewer tracks, straightened curves, buildings that are different and so on, aren't you already kind of modelling an imaginary place? If you instead decide to model an imaginary neighbouring station from the start everything can look Aizu Line, you can still operate with prototypical rolling stocks, with a prototypical time table and so on, but you won't have to think about how to attempt to shoehorn in items that don't really fit in your available space. Also you are free to add things. Operating would be more interesting with a rail served industry? No problem adding it. You think some particular kind of scenery would look nice? You've find a Tomytec building you like? A shrine? A bambo groove? No problem, just add them where there is space. Using sectional track and not gluing it down (at least not for a long time) is SO flexible. You can have a station layout up and running within an hour and be shunting trains. The next day you can modify the track into another station layout. The day after that you've found something else to improve. Maybe a year later you have room for something bigger more ambitious, then everything is easy to disassemble and everything can easily be reused for your new project. Also for the majority of us who aren't super experienced layout planners, track planning software is only useful up to a point. Doing actual shunting on an real life track is the final test of what works and what does not. That's when you find out that something doesn't look quite right, if there isn't enough space somewhere for your trains do what you want them to do, there's some unecessary track, the yard lead is too short, or whatever. I spent A LOT of time with anyrail planning my Yamahama layout, but it wasn't until I had physical track pieces to play around with that everything fell into place. Tomix Finetrack is great. You'll find it has some types of turnouts and other track pieces that are useful for complicated station layouts, that aren't available for KATO Unitrack. Tomix is DC plug and play and everything is super easy to plug together and use with fully power routing turnouts and there are plug and play solutions also for more electrically complicated requirements. Standard turnouts with wooden sleepare are currently sold for 2050 yen on Amazon Japan. Anyway, as you've been in the planning stage for 7 years I think it's time for you to get some track and start playing with trains now. 😊 2 Link to comment
cteno4 Posted October 28 Share Posted October 28 11 hours ago, MeTheSwede said: Using sectional track and not gluing it down (at least not for a long time) is SO flexible. You can have a station layout up and running within an hour and be shunting trains. The next day you can modify the track into another station layout. The day after that you've found something else to improve. Maybe a year later you have room for something bigger more ambitious, then everything is easy to disassemble and everything can easily be reused for your new project. Also for the majority of us who aren't super experienced layout planners, track planning software is only useful up to a point. Doing actual shunting on a real life track is the final test of what works and what does not. That's when you find out that something doesn't look quite right, if there isn't enough space somewhere for your trains do what you want them to do, there's some unecessary track, the yard lead is too short, or whatever. I spent A LOT of time with anyrail planning my Yamahama layout, but it wasn't until I had physical track pieces to play around with that everything fell into place. The Swede advises wisely here, especially in this sort of shunting layout. Playing with sectional track and some trains can give a very different dimension you will never get from track planning software, especially when you are trying to compress a lot into the layout. Also gets you thinking in new ways as I find after a certain point fiddling with a plan in layout software I find I sort of paint myself into a corner many times. Playing with track can help bump you out of those corners as well as find some gotchas that don’t work well with real track/trains to just alway avoid in your track planning exercises. cheers jeff 1 Link to comment
Pashina12 Posted October 29 Author Share Posted October 29 Hm, the point about playing around with sectional track is well taken, since you're both right that it would let me get some actual running happening to figure out the best sort of arrangement for the track layout better than any software can... but sooner rather than later I'd want to affix it permanently, since part of the objective of this project is to get some practice with doing scenery work. 16 hours ago, Junech said: Sounds like a really nice plan. I would rather remove 2 other tracks for the current layout to keep the Down 2 one. I also just threw in the 3-way switches from Peco code 55 track to gain some additional length. Each square is 100x100mm, so you got close to 100mm on both sides for landscape.: Hm, I rather like this arrangement. Although it is quite different on the Up end, I think it still captures the feel of the arrangement quite well... 13 hours ago, MeTheSwede said: Here are some thoughts: Modelling an imaginary station along the Aizu line would solve A LOT of your problems. Real life station areas are BIG, but an imaginary place can be just the size that fits the rectangular space you have available. If your version of Nishi-Wakamatsu is shorter, has a bit fewer tracks, straightened curves, buildings that are different and so on, aren't you already kind of modelling an imaginary place? If you instead decide to model an imaginary neighbouring station from the start everything can look Aizu Line, you can still operate with prototypical rolling stocks, with a prototypical time table and so on, but you won't have to think about how to attempt to shoehorn in items that don't really fit in your available space. Also you are free to add things. Operating would be more interesting with a rail served industry? No problem adding it. You think some particular kind of scenery would look nice? You've find a Tomytec building you like? A shrine? A bambo groove? No problem, just add them where there is space. I read this post this morning, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. Since this layout won't end up being incorporated into the Big One when it comes time to build that, it doesn't matter if it's not a real location... I have a few small kit bits like a Nittsu office and loading area and similar things that I have no real use for on the Big Layout, that I could make use of here... and I'm already envisioning one end having a tunnel mouth, with higher scenery in the back, a retaining wall, with a road coming over the tracks on a bridge and down to foreground level to the station... I think I'll spend a bit of time exploring Senrohaisenzu for inspirational ideas. Yes. I like this. Quote Tomix Finetrack is great. You'll find it has some types of turnouts and other track pieces that are useful for complicated station layouts, that aren't available for KATO Unitrack. Tomix is DC plug and play and everything is super easy to plug together and use with fully power routing turnouts and there are plug and play solutions also for more electrically complicated requirements. Standard turnouts with wooden sleepare are currently sold for 2050 yen on Amazon Japan. Anyway, as you've been in the planning stage for 7 years I think it's time for you to get some track and start playing with trains now. 😊 Well I'll find some geometry drawings and play around in SCARM with track arrangements and see what I can come up with! I'm familiar enough with the Aizu Line and the Tadami Line that I should be able to come up with something that fits the locale. 🙂 ... and you're right, it would be nice to finally get my trains rolling, too. Link to comment
Pashina12 Posted October 29 Author Share Posted October 29 So spent a bit of time this evening playing around in SCARM with the Tomix track to come up with a fictitious spot on the Aizu (or Tadami) Line that I think has some fun shunting potential: The grey lines are the approximate location (not width!) of roads, the dashed brown line is the limit of the hill/cliff face, and the straight brown line is retaining wall alongside the track (retaining walls are a very Aizu Line thing, heh). The road across the tracks on the left I'm thinking to be a bridge, the one on the right, a level crossing. The 1 marks the entrance to a tunnel. 2, 3, and 4: this area is a paper mill, the building will be represented in partial relief; track 2 is for the unloading of wood chips directly into the building; track 3 is for unloading of tank cars supplying necessary chemical; number 4 is an area for loading finished product onto train or truck, and perhaps a car park for employees of the paper plant. Number 5 is a small yard for Nittsu, with an office building and a sheltered area for transferring cargo (packages/consignments) from a boxcar to trucks for distribution in the area. 6 is the station's own freight track, 7 is an island platform, 8 is the area of the station building. To the right end, on the right side of the up/down road, will be various town structures, shops or residences or suchlike. Probably including a filling station, as I really want to model a Kyoseki filling station *somewhere*... (because I constantly have their old jingle stuck in my head: 心のかようおつきあい 共同石油 ... don't ask lol). Anyways this is a preliminary idea, I'd really appreciate any feedback! 🙂 1 Link to comment
Pashina12 Posted Wednesday at 03:28 PM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 03:28 PM Well I pulled the trigger and ordered in all the track I'll need for this last plan. Once I've got it I'll lay it out on my surface and see how it looks/works. Now to start looking around for inspirational photos of paper mills... 1 Link to comment
Junech Posted Wednesday at 03:54 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 03:54 PM Looks like a good plan so far, I think. For the paper mill, since it is only a relief, you can probably use pretty much any industrial facility from that period. Since it will mostly be big machines in big halls doing the work (at least with a paper mill that has so much track supporting it). You could also combine some different styles of older and more "modern" buildings to show that it grew bigger over time. I would also add a place to unload coal. The machines want their power source after all. Even if they switched to electricity at some point there may be still an old track left and overgrown in the old place. Link to comment
Pashina12 Posted Wednesday at 06:06 PM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 06:06 PM Ooh, coal is a good idea, once I get the tracks I'll try to play around and see how I can fit it in best. At a glance the one straight piece between track 3 and the turnout leading to the paper mill could be swapped out with another turnout... and maybe have the new track lead to the chemical unloading, and make track 3 longer leading to the coal dump spot. Did they use gravity-fed coal trestles at factories in Japan? Thinking maybe could put one of those in their, to dump the coal from the coal hoppers onto a conveyor belt... Link to comment
Junech Posted Wednesday at 07:30 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 07:30 PM My knowledge about Japanese freight cars isn't big enough to know about that. But since you need to unload wood as well you could use a raised gantry crane (something looking like this but older: https://www.twin-tech.nl/en/product/gantry-crane/). You can place it in two ways. 1. Parallel to tracks 2 and 3 with unloading behind the bumpers. 2. At a 90° angle spanning over tracks 2 and 3. and unloading to the side. It will run into the background and you will only be able to show either coal or wood being unloaded. But you will need to find another place for your liquids to unload. If you choose the second option you could just stretch out track 3 to fit the additional space needed. Link to comment
Pashina12 Posted Wednesday at 09:07 PM Author Share Posted Wednesday at 09:07 PM The wood will arrive as wood chips in ToRa90000s, I've seen photos of those being unloaded by scoop machines, and shovels for the last little bits the scoop couldn't get. I'm thinking to actually have that track enter the building (that is, track 2 goes into the building, but either way, that's how I'll have it unloaded, adjacent to a platform that's at the height of the side of the car/bottom of the cage on the car. I need to look closely at how tank cars are unloaded, but it will in all likelihood be pipes running from where the car is parked, into the building. For coal... well I'll look around more when I have free time. Link to comment
Pashina12 Posted Friday at 09:02 PM Author Share Posted Friday at 09:02 PM Rather to my surprise, Amazon showed up already today with my package - all the track I need for the last track plan, minus the 280 mm pieces; Amazon had none, so that's on the way from HS, along with a few other small pieces. I don't have time this weekend to do it, but I look forward to putting the track up onto the shelf to see how it actually lays out in the physical form. Exciting! 1 Link to comment
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