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Melandir

Say goodbye to Italy old trains

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Melandir

In the next few days there will be the announcement of the winners of the biggest train bid in Italy

 

a €4.5 Billion contract for 500 trains that will finally replace some museum trains we still have around

 

the contract was divided in 3 sections

 

300 trains with at least 600 seats

150 trains with at least 450 seats

50 diesel trains

 

Alstom seems to have won the 150 trains with 450 seats

 

Stadler won the 50 diesel trains (it was the only bidder)

 

Alstom and Hitachi (ex Ansaldo Breda) are close for the 300 trains with 600 seats

 

in the next 3-5 years there will be more modern and comfortable train for commuters

 

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Socimi

What trains are intended to replace? 

 

Will they replace the last remaining "Piano Ribassato" (low-floor uncomfortable commuter cars from the 60s) ?

 

or the most comfortable masterpiece-of-italian-engeneering Chopper EMUs (ALe 724, ALe 582 and ALe 642)?

 

Is the bidder Trenitalia? They will serve northern or southern italy?

 

Any further information?

Edited by DavideTreni

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Ronny

The Stadler replace the Aln 668 and D445 + coaches, the other 2 I don't know. The bidder is Trenitalia so I think the will go all around Italy, not in Lombardia because we have Trenord.

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Melandir

Trenitalia is the company that will purchase the trains

 

These train are for commuters and will start serve the regions that has a contract signed with Trenitalia for local transportation, the first one is Emilia-Romagna for 96 new trains

other regions will follow based on contract signed

 

New trains will start to replace the oldest ones in the network in the regions were contracts are signed

 

we will see what happen, I'm waiting the official announcement from Trenitalia on the bid result

 

for more information you can google "commessa treni regionali"

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Nick_Burman

Before adding new stock, could someone at Trenitalia please teach their drivers how to brake properly? Otherwise they will simply not last... I have been in Italy (based in Padova) now for two weeks and there has simply not been a single train I have ridden without at least one coach with wheels with (bad) flat spots...

 

Cheers NB

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bikkuri bahn

The news is out:

ROME (Reuters) – Hitachi Rail Italy, France’s Alstom and Swiss firm Stadler have won contracts worth a combined 4.5 billion euros (3.74 billion pound) to build trains for Trenitalia, the Italian train operator said on Tuesday.

Hitachi Rail Italy, born out of Hitachi’s <6501.T> purchase of AnsaldoBreda from Finmeccanica <SIFI.MI> last year, won the biggest chunk of the contract, to build 300 trains.

A person familiar with the deal told Reuters that Hitachi’s contract, consisting of trains with at least 450 seats, was worth about 3 billion euros. Trenitalia did not say how much it would pay each individual supplier.

Alstom <ALSO.PA> will build 150 medium-capacity trains, Trenitalia said in a statement. Stadler won the bid to build diesel-powered trains, but Trenitalia said it reserved the right to re-evaluate the Swiss firm’s proposal.

 

http://www.euronews.com/business-newswires/3213060-hitachi-alstom-stadler-win-5-billion-contract-to-build-trains-for-trenitalia/

 

some good news for Hitachi, after all the Brexit headaches...

Edited by bikkuri bahn

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Nick_Burman

For beleguered commuters also...the other day I was travelling from Padova to Belluno when the train I was in started having troubles - the gearbox in one of the cars in a 3-car ALn668 railcar set refused to shift into gear. After fiddling with some switches the conductor cut the car out and let its sisters shove it for the remainder of the trip - slowly, as the 668's have mechanical drives and their trainsmission isn't keen on pulling or pushing dead loads. Result, 10' late at Belluno.

 

The return trip was also interesting...huge mountain storm knocked the signalling system (and the station lighting at Feltre!) out of service for several hours. Had to be bused back to Padova...

 

Cheers NB

Edited by Nick_Burman

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trainsforever8

Image of the new trains to be built by Hitachi Rail Italy. The model will be called Caravaggio.

http://italy.hitachirail.com/en/hitachi-rail-italy-is-awarded-a-contract-for-the-supply-of-new-double-deck-regional-trains_512.html

woooooooooowww!! this is insanely gorgeous!!!! However, I am wondering. I know that Ansaldo Breda now belongs to Hitachi and changed its name to Hitachi Rail Italia, however, is this still considered "Italian Technology" or is it now "Japanese Technology"? Because I'm guessing that through the purchase of the firm, the engineers and designers did not change, right?

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bikkuri bahn

^^

Yes, I think your assumptions are correct.  I'm curious what traction packages these units will have, perhaps Hitachi Japan will supply them. 

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trainsforever8

Also, have you guys noticed that the front design of the train seems to have an influence from the E353系? 

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bikkuri bahn

^^

Likely purely coincidental, especially given the e353 is a J-Trec product with styling by Ken Okuyama, not Hitachi.

 

What I find interesting is the suggestion of sliding, rather than plug doors. Perhaps this is the Hitachi influence? Of course, this is just a preliminary artists impression.

 

A Nikkei article today stated that the first prototype of the Caravaggio trainset will appear in February 2018, with line production occurring from February 2019 to November 2019.

Edited by bikkuri bahn

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Melandir

woooooooooowww!! this is insanely gorgeous!!!! However, I am wondering. I know that Ansaldo Breda now belongs to Hitachi and changed its name to Hitachi Rail Italia, however, is this still considered "Italian Technology" or is it now "Japanese Technology"? Because I'm guessing that through the purchase of the firm, the engineers and designers did not change, right?

 

My guess is that it will be Japan tech "made in Italy", it make sense to standardize as much as possible, if you have traction package design that work you will use that to reduce development costs, I'm happy that Hitachi won that bid, at the end 450 out of 500 trains will be manufactured in Italy

 

Just some background on this bid:

It took some time to announce the winners because some adjustment needed to be done at the price of the offer

 

Alstom was first in two bid the 300 high capacity trains(Hitachi was a really close second) and in the 150 medium capacity trains, but the bid rules that each company could only get one bid (the richest one that you won)

 

Alstom does not produce High capacity trains in Italy but only the medium capacity so if they won the richest bid they have to renounce to the second one, and Hitachi was not bidding for the medium capacity ones, so it could have ended that all trains will have been built outside Italy.

 

Then someone "gently" asked Hitachi to make a small adjustment to the price and then magically Hitachi was first in their bid and everyone was now happy as 450 trains will now be built in Italy

 

Trenitalia is still reviewing the proposal made by Stadler for the diesel trains as they were the only bidder on that

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trainsforever8

Interesting! Well, these trains are definitely good looking, I can't wait to see what they will look like with a Trenitalia livery!

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Socimi

woooooooooowww!! this is insanely gorgeous!!!! However, I am wondering. I know that Ansaldo Breda now belongs to Hitachi and changed its name to Hitachi Rail Italia, however, is this still considered "Italian Technology" or is it now "Japanese Technology"? Because I'm guessing that through the purchase of the firm, the engineers and designers did not change, right?

 

I'm sorry but i completely disagree. 

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Nick_Burman

I'm sorry but i completely disagree. 

 Why?

 

Cheers NB

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kvp

My personal oppinion is that after a purchase like this, usually two things happen:

-the engineers and desigers are replaced by the buyer's own staff and only final assembly is done locally

-or only the market is kept

 

Third would be buying a company for the brand name and patents, but this isn't an option in this case.

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Nick_Burman

I doubt there will be any replacements - with what? Engineers from Japan? What for? I doubt it.

 

The design might be worked out in Japan, but part fabrication and final assembly will be most likely be done locally. Given that AnsaldoBreda's plants are mainly in the south (Naples, Reggio Calabria, Palermo) there must be more than one mayor wringing his hands in the anticipation of more jobs (even if temporary) in a very depressed part of the world.

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kvp

Considering the electrical engineering quality in some recent Ansaldo Breda trains, i think Hitachi will provide the off the shelf traction, brake, control and pa systems. (and probably hvac too)

 

So thanks to the excellent japanese modular design, the assembly plant workers just have to install everything into the locally welded frame. No engineers or designers required, just a few workers, mostly skilled technicians. This is the case with the new UK sets too.

 

Btw. the documentation for the new italian sets talk about 4 powered bogies for 5 cars, so i wonder about the arrangement. (like: mctttmc, mcmtttc, tcmtmtc, mc'm'tm'mc', etc.)

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Melandir

Considering the electrical engineering quality in some recent Ansaldo Breda trains, i think Hitachi will provide the off the shelf traction, brake, control and pa systems

Save for the imfamous trains to netherlands all the other products, are working nicely especially all the metro products so I don't see a quality issue, but it's a matter of economy scale get one good product and try to use it as much as possible

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